Camestros Felapton

FELAPTONL

Weber, cons and Sergey Lukyanenko

David Weber reposted a Facebook post from two years ago, when he commented on the disinvitation of Toni Weisskopf from the 2021 Worldcon. The disinivitation arose in the aftermath of the January 6th riot and pro-insurrectionary comments on Baen’s discussion forum Baen’s Bar.

Weber’s repost had the additional context of a recent discussion about Larry Correia’s role of guest of honour at Marscon https://camestrosfelapton.wordpress.com/2023/02/10/wrapping-up-a-controversy/ Weber, as a former GoH at Marscon, had involved himself in that particular controversy, in a manner similar to his actions some years previously with John Ringo (the author not heavily disguised German philosopher).

In the comments to the repost ( which you can find here https://www.facebook.com/david.weber.5621/posts/pfbid0bnm92rpYVPucuNLBB6KURbfrGrCg3HrXesXQ4tEzN39Wm4fwoSmTzDfLDSUZcnjwl ) Larry Correia (and more diplomatically Baen editor Sean C.W. Korsgaard) have expressed anger that while one Worldcon disinvited Toni Weisskopf, the current Worldcon apparently has no issue with Sergey Lukyanenko — a man with extremely bigoted views about Ukranians (e.g. https://file770.com/sergei-lukianenko-hails-attacks-on-ukrainian-civilian-targets/ )

I’ll spare you Larry’s rant and here’s the toned down version from Sean C.W. Korsgaard:

“Sean CW Korsgaard
Meanwhile the guest of honor this Worldcon defends war crimes in Ukraine, and the crowd that kicked out Toni has displayed all the testicular fortitude of a Chinese court eunuch.”

https://www.facebook.com/david.weber.5621/posts/pfbid0bnm92rpYVPucuNLBB6KURbfrGrCg3HrXesXQ4tEzN39Wm4fwoSmTzDfLDSUZcnjwl?comment_id=921134785753171

Testicles aside, this is a weak charge as there has not been a lack of people objecting. It hasn’t reached the heights of a social-media firestorm mainly because Chengdu Worldcon has been largely uncommunicative (in general, not just about Lukyanenko). There have been multiple discussions on File 770 (see https://file770.com/tag/sergei-lukianenko/ ) as multiple objections raised on social media most notably by Hugo Bookclub:

@chengduworldcon really should reconsider Sergey Lukianenko as a guest of honour.

Especially after the October 20 TV interview where Lukianenko laughs along and generally agrees when the host suggests that Ukrainian children should be drowned.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/24/russian-tv-presenter-anton-krasovsky-accused-of-inciting-genocide-in-ukraine

Originally tweeted by an unofficial Hugo Book Club blog (@Hugo_Book_Club) on February 21, 2023.

OK, putting the issue of whether people are objecting to the Chengdu GoH or not (they are and vocally), the other question is whether Weber et al, think he should be disinvited. Note, I’m not asking whether David Weber agrees with Lukianenko’s views about Ukrainians (clearly, Weber doesn’t agree with them) but whether:

  • Lukianenko’s views are sufficiently disqualifying
  • Chengdu should withdraw the invitation

Lukianenko hasn’t committed a crime and he hasn’t “attacked” a specific fan in an arena controlled by the convention…so doesn’t this mean by Weber’s rules he should NOT be disinvited?

[Update: apologies to David Weber. He did actually reply to the specific question I put to him on Facebook about this:

” It both does and does not. I’m not trying to waffle, and I’ve put up another post dealing specifically with it.

Lukyanenko’s own words specifically and clearly convict him of the things for which his opponents are attempting to ban him. Guest selection was in early 2022 (April, I think?), little more than a month or so (if that) after the Russian invasion. Many of Lukyanenko’s more egregious comments have come in support of the actual invasion, and hence post-date his selection as a GoH. Under the rubric I’ve proposed, a con can always disinvite a guest for unacceptable behavior/actions which arose/became publicly known only AFTER the invitation was extended. Now, his ATTITUDES were already well known, and he’d already made several anti-Ukraine statements, but there was no actual invasion underway at the time and he was not openly supporting the commission of ACTUAL war crimes. That means there is a significantly different level of offenses to consider.

Given that, I think WorldCon would be totally justified in rescinding his invitation. If he’s assumed financial obligations to get there, then reprehensible and vile as I find him, his expenses should be covered by the con, if it SHOULD happen disinvite him. Having said that, there is no way in hell that a WorldCon in Chengdu, with a Chinese con com, is going to buck the PRC and embarrass it by rejecting a GoH for supporting a PRC ally. Not gonna happen. WorldCon has had the moral integrity of a streetwalker and the spine of an earthworm when it comes to GoH invitations for years now. We should expect someone living in an authoritarian state to show greater courage and moral integrity than their predecessors?

Like I say, not gonna happen.”

https://www.facebook.com/david.weber.5621/posts/pfbid0bnm92rpYVPucuNLBB6KURbfrGrCg3HrXesXQ4tEzN39Wm4fwoSmTzDfLDSUZcnjwl?comment_id=1239746503616953&reply_comment_id=908320466881588

camestrosfelapton

39 responses to “Weber, cons and Sergey Lukyanenko”

  1. Weber comes of as a bargain bin Correia: Full of blustering and posturing. As we all know, Weisskopf was disinvited for her actions (and lack thereof) after she had been named GoH, so the same rules should go for her as for Lukyanenko.

    Liked by 2 people

  2. I’m somewhat amazed that Correia and Weber are objecting to Lukyanenko. Some of the extreme right in the US — e.g., Tucker Carlson — are cheerleading for Russia. This puts me in the very uncomfortable position of agreeing with Correia — about Lukyanenko, not Toni Weisskopf.

    Liked by 2 people

  3. Weber, Correia, and the rest of the clown shoes crew that make up right wing science fiction continue to not understand anything about how Worldcon is organized.

    The people running Discon III are not the people running the Chengdu Worldcon. Criticizing the current Worldcon for not disinviting Lukyanenko on the grounds that a previous Worldcon disinvited Weisskopf is like saying you are angry at Thailand because the Australian government did something you disapprove of.

    For the record, I was wholly on board with disinviting Weisskopf (in fact, I told the people who were running Discon III that inviting her was a bad idea to begin with), and I think Lukyanenko should be not only disinvited from being GoH, but should be banned from the convention entirely. Unfortunately, I have no pull of any kind with the Chengdu Worldcon people, so my opinion is of no practical consequence.

    Liked by 3 people

    • I’d wager there are NO concom members in common. RWNJ are used to large professionally-owned cons (Dragon, Comic, Creation) which have the same PAID staffs every year making the final decisions.

      People from different cities and countries putting on a giant con just for fun is such an alien concept to them, since they’re all about profit, only volunteering for their local/religious/ethnic community, and simply cannot comprehend that people give up hundreds of hours of free time and their own money to throw a great 5-day-long party for thousands of people they don’t know and will never meet. And many of them don’t get to go to a lot of the events, they’re so busy keeping it running!

      They’re far too insular and too much “what’s in it for me?” which is a very sad way to live. Maybe one of the reasons they’re so angry all the time, along with their basic inferiority?

      Like Aaron said, disinviting Weisskopf was the only moral decision after she openly supported violent, treasonous rebellion in the city where it was going to happen.

      But of course no one outside China has any control over Chengdu. And Weber should damn well know that — either he’s stupid, hasn’t paid attention over the decades, or he might be pretending not to know, the better to rile up the idiotic rubes. And it’s clearly to China’s benefit if Russia’s got troops, money, and materiel tied up in a “month-long” war that’s lasted a year. It’s safer for China with a poorer Russia and most of the troops elsewhere. While abhorrent, I can’t disagree with the realpolitik calculation.

      Anyway, since none of us foreigners can buy memberships or vote for Hugos or had a government who could order people to buy voting memberships, and even the Chinese people have very little control over public-facing things, the entire question is moot. No one knows if the Chengdu concom has any real control over it!

      We have no idea who even picked the guests, or even if it’s going to happen at all, what with Xi deciding for economic reasons to let COVID rip through a population with no exposure to the many variants or decent vaccinations. Thousands must be dying every day, but it’s not like the government cares about old, disabled, or poor people — less than Western governments do. Their billionaires and apparatchiks don’t even have to give lip service to caring.

      Frankly, the right wing should feel at home with the Chinese government’s policies! What with saying grandma would be happy to die for the economy, the violent hatred of anyone who dares question Dear Leader, the hatred of anyone not like them, their immersion in pure propaganda networks and not actually believing in free speech… yep, those ChiComs are their kind of people, except for no guns or White Jeezuz!

      Liked by 2 people

    • Note that there is an upcoming bid for a Worldcon in Israel in 2027. As it is illegal in Israel to boycott war criminals, the convention will in fact become a supporter of them. We will have to ban all members.

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        • Most of the guests/members from developed nations would be somewhat complicit.

          I never supported the US wars from Vietnam to today, and Cora probably hates Nazis more than the rest of us. I’m sure our Canadian, Australian, and NZ members had nothing to do with the extermination and mistreatment of their First Peoples, and the Brits we know weren’t out colonially subjugating people for fun and profit.

          So that’s pretty fuzzy. But people who are actively, vocally right now supporting war crimes or treason shouldn’t be invited. No Weisskopf, no Lukyaneko.

          And frankly, nobody from Baen’s Bar. Nobody should be inviting Larry or Drake anywhere, or any of their little cabal. Supporting treason should NOT be honored. Even when the US became independent, they didn’t go around trying to whack George III and Prinny, or destroy Westminster.

          Liked by 1 person

          • I wouldn’t ban everybody from Baen’s Bar (or from Baen), but certainly the people who were actively involved in the calls for violence and incitement to terrorism, including authors. And frankly, I would be very careful about authors known to be thin-skinned and aggressive jerks with equally aggressive fans.

            Liked by 2 people

      • Easier than banning all members: Vote against Israel for the Worldcon. I don’t know if any other site has been proposed, but there’s probably time yet.

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        • It will be illegal in Israel to uninvite people who do not support war crimes. Boycotting the illegal settlements is a crime according to Israeli law. Any Worldcon there will be forced to let supporters of war crimes enter the convention. They are after all the majority of the population.

          To try to stop all supporters of ongoing war crimes from being on panels would be opening containers of worms even in US. Just try to stop the whole board of the Jewish Federations of North America for supporting the Israeli occupation economically and see where it gets you. Or almost the whole US congress and senate. Not to talk about Blinken and Biden who both are open supporters of war crimes.

          My guess is that you will find supporters of war crimes in more or less all concoms, even for the progressive conventions. It just isn’t Russian war crimes.

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        • I strongly suspect that there will be a counterbid to the Tel Aviv Worldcon bid, simply because it is a very controversial location. Though as with Chengdu, Israeli fans are not responsible for the policies of their government and most Israeli fans I know are in fact opposed to those policies.

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          • Less than ten percent of Israels population, including Palestinian voters, voted for a party that was against the occupation, so I’d guess that most fans in Israel in fact are responsible for the apartheid policies of the government. That’s a difference from China, which is a dictatorship with heavily censored news, where the population has little part in official policy.

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            • I am boggled that there are Palestinians who are in favor of Israeli settlement policies. Sure, there always are those types, like gay Republicans, but that seems OTT.

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      • SF-related trivia loosely related to this. A couple of decades ago, an Israeli soldier (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Keller) was court-martialed – and during the trial he cited Heinlein’s “The Long Watch” as an influence on his actions (this information is now hard to find, but I did eventually find this now-deleted discussion in Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Long_Watch&diff=prev&oldid=64193143)

        Liked by 2 people

  5. Nevermind that Weber is a filthy fucking liar, nevermind that I DO think that Lukianenko should be disinvited, there’s still a mile of difference between what Weisskopf did and what Lukianenko did. Not that it matters with the “Lets score political points with odious bullshit crowd”

    Liked by 1 person

    • Yeah, toeing the Soviet Russian party line is probably the smart thing to do if you don’t fancy having an “accident” or going to Siberia.

      Actively supporting a murderous attempted coup of a government elected in a democratic election by the majority of the citizens is a choice, and a very evil one. It is literally treason, and the RWNJ have a cow when it happens in other countries, but America fuck yeah.

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    • I don’t think there is a mile of difference. I think they are about the same.

      While many Russians support the war in Ukraine, just as many Americans supported the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo and Libya, it’s a totally different thing to go out and actively promote it and with the language used by Lukyanenko. While many Russians might feel forced to word support out of fear of health, income and career, it is a very different thing to do so enthusiastically.

      And as for Weisskopf, I can only say that her handling of Baen’s Bar would have been illegal in Sweden. Hosting peoples calls to arms and support for mass slaughter of those of different opinions is against the law and if it could be shown that she hadn’t removed the comments when she first got notice of them, she would get fines or jail. While US doesn’t have the same laws, I will still judge her for the immorality when defending the publication of the calls for violence in connection with the coup attempt.

      Both Weisskopf and Lukyanenko has shown that they are ok with using violence to put people in power against the will of the population. I can’t see a mile of difference there.

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    • While speaking out against the invasion of Ukraine is illegal in Russia, not to mention dangerous (though note that other Russian authors like Dmitry Glukhovsky, have spoken out against the invasion of Ukraine), Lukyanenko has made his views about Ukraine clear well before the invasion and has since doubled down repeatedly. He isn’t afraid to speak up, but clearly very much agrees with Russian policy and the invasion of Ukraine, which makes him completely unsuitable as a GoH.

      Toni Weisskopf did not personally call for violence and terrorism and support attempted insurrection, but she did allow such things to be published on Baen’s platform and did not take steps to stop that sort of thing, when this was pointed out to her, which makes her an unsuitable GoH.

      There still is a difference, though. Lukyanenko personally endorsed war, violence and the murder of civilians. Weisskopf did not personally endorse violence, but allowed such endorsements to be posted on her platform and did not condemn any of the statements.

      Liked by 1 person

  6. 1) Notice, as Aaron pointed out, how they pretend that WorldCon’s committee runs every con and makes the guest decisions when it suits them rather than a different set of con runners each time. That when Weber wants to sound off about the Chinese, he at the same time remembers that it’s a different group running the up-coming WorldCon than other WorldCons. The hypocrisy, the ability to simply spew it, is the point.

    2) Notice the lying that non-right wingers aren’t protesting Lukyanenko’s invitation. The lying is also the point. They are always the righteous chosen, even though many on the right in the U.S. support Lukyanenko’s positions towards Ukraine. But because their faction happens to support Ukraine’s defense, as most of us do, they lie and say we’re on the opposite side.

    3) Notice the double standard (hypocrisy) Weber dresses up in regarding disinvitation decisions. He declares that Lukyanenko did a bad thing in his remarks after his invitation, so it’s okay to disinvite. But Ringo, after people objected to his invitation, sent his followers to harass the women and black authors who objected to Ringo being GOH at the Carolina con — which is exactly what those authors were worried about with Ringo being GOH. But Weber doesn’t see what Ringo, his pal, did as a wrong-doing, as others shouldn’t be allowed to criticize him or consider Ringo’s behavior threatening or harassing. He refuses to acknowledge discrimination that non-white non-cishet men authors have to deal with in SFF (because he doesn’t want to) and which Ringo actively encourages with his rhetoric and behavior. So Ringo gets a pass.

    Likewise TW’s allowing of Baen’s Bar members to use the platform to support the terrorist insurrection of 1/6 without moderation was an on-going issue including after her invitation. But that doesn’t count because Weber doesn’t have a problem with it. An inconsistent standard is perfectly fine for Weber as long as he’s deciding which standards and how the standards are applied for everybody. If it’s his pals or someone who shares his views, disinvitation is wrong. If it’s someone who doesn’t share his views, disinvitation can be given a rationale. And Correia’s harassing behavior after his invitation and criticism of it is also not an issue because he spouts the right politics.

    4) Notice the casual sexism: “the moral integrity of a streetwalker.” That’s deliberate and fits with the same guy who told women SFF authors regarding the Carolina con that he’d decide what was sexism and sexual harassment at the con, not them or an established and enforced code of conduct.

    So no, Weber isn’t a mini-LC. He’s a more polished but equally blustery and prejudiced version, with more clout in the field, using his cultural rep as a “reasonable” right-leaning libertarian type to say what’s allowed and what’s not, as determined by him. Which is exactly the type of ally that Correia and Ringo types look for to help protect them from criticism of their rhetoric and behavior.

    Liked by 3 people

    • 2) I think Korsgaard has raised objections elsewhere – or at least he has voiced both concern that Worldcon is in China because of human rights abuses and has expressed support for Ukraine. I can’t find a tweet specifically about Lukyanenko but the various transliterations of his name makes him tricky to search on.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Koorsgard has definitely raised objections regarding both a Worldcon in China in general and Sergey Lukyanenko in particular, though I can’t give you a link, because it was on Discord.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Their only rule: “It’s okay if you’re a Republican”.

      I’m certain there are any number of streetwalkers with more moral integrity than the RW writers and fans. Not to mention many of them didn’t choose that life but were forced into it, unlike the RWNJ who actively choose to be immoral.

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  7. “Those evil Worldcon Leftists have disinvited Toni Weisskopf, but did not disinvite Sergey Lukyanenko” seems to be the latest Baen talking point, along with racist claptrap about “selling” Worldcon to China.

    I have pointed out to Baen affiliated people that there have been several protests and petitions against Lukyanenko almost from the moment he was announced as GoH in late 2021, well before the invasion of Ukraine. Particularly Ukrainian fans were quick to raise the alarm and point out Lukyanenko’s problematic attitudes and remarks.

    I have also pointed out that Worldcon was not “sold” to China, but that Chengdu won the site selection vote. Also note that none of the people clutching their pearls about Chengdu and Lukyanenko now have bothered to vote in site selection in 2021 or tried to persuade people to vote for Winnipeg or have signed any of the petitions against Lukyanenko.

    Though it sometimes seems with Baen folks that you might as well be talking to a brick wall. Never mind that SFF publishing professionals should at least have a cursory understanding of how Worldcon and the Hugos work.

    Liked by 2 people

    • It’s not talking to a brick wall. They hear you; they just don’t like what you’re saying. They have their narrative, it’s staged and repeating it over and over with various levels of outrage and virtuousness is their way of dominating and feeling good about themselves. If you point out a fact they don’t like or that they’re being hypocrites, they just ignore it or deflect. The imaginary lefties are their imaginary enemies and they are nefarious.

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    • Facts don’t enter into it. Facts hurt their brains and shriveled little souls. They’re all about the feels, and anger is much easier to keep your brain busy with than sadness, worry about other people, or your own insecurities and inadequacies. Plus it’s much more profitable for the purveyors of it.

      “Truthiness” is all.

      (Of course a lot of them really thought Stephen Colbert was actually a RWNJ, because irony is hard for them too. And they still talk to “Daily Show” correspondents!)

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        • With a few noble exceptions, they’re becoming the SFF version of whoever it was published LC’s “book” and the “Christian”* publishers. Very into groupthink, ideological purity, etc.

          I wish the few non-evil authors they have could get contracts elsewhere.

          * Not to be confused with the actual stuff that Middle-Eastern Jewish socialist actually is recorded as talking about.

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          • “With a few noble exceptions, they’re becoming the SFF version of whoever it was published LC’s ‘book’”

            That would be Regnery Publishing. Probably not a coincidence that former Baen editor and author Tony Daniel is now an editor at Regnery.

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  8. What Weber is pointedly ignoring is there is no such *a* Worldcon as the Worldcon that made the decision about Toni has absolutely nothing in common with the WorldCon that invited Sergey. Each WorldCon as we know is a unique thing. This one even more so unfortunately.

    Liked by 1 person

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