In my last post I mentioned a Mad Genius post re-hashing the history of the Sad Puppies. Greg H popped in the comments to explain some of the numbers and I think it is more than fair to say that Greg knows the relevant numbers re Sad versus Rabid Puppy participation and he explains them well (and politely). Nobody will be surprised to hear this does not go down well.
Amanda Green (one of the more sensible and reality adjacent figures at MGC responds in a less than temperate manner: https://madgeniusclub.com/2019/02/16/fanhistory/#comment-125541
“Greg, come back and talk to us about fair when you can explain how it was fair of those same “majority of voters” to go to publishers and editors and try to get authors fired or forced to toe the “right line”. Come back and talk about fair when you can explain how they were fair by manipulating the rules to make sure the unwashed masses couldn’t take away their darling awards ever again. Came back and talk about fair when there was a mass campaign to prevent authors and editors from winning simply because the “majority” didn’t like who nominated them. Frankly, I’m tired of your holier than thou attitude and the way you continue to conflate Rabids with Sads.”
Ho hum. Let’s go through:
A majority of voters did not ‘go to publishers and editors and try to get authors fired or forced to toe the “right line”’ However, the Sad Puppies most certainly DID try to pressure a publisher into firing somebody and did try to get employers to force people to toe the line.
For example, here’s MGC endorsing a Tor boycott because they were angry with what a Tor employee had said: https://madgeniusclub.com/2015/06/07/dear-tor/
“Tor, let’s face facts: that you repeatedly allow straw man makers like John Scalzi to have a place in your stable, even as he vainly justifies his arrogant idiocy is absurd. To allow bigots like NK Jemisin bully pulpits without regard for fact or truth is wrong. “
That’s from Jonathan La Force as a guest post. The person who put the post up on MGC? According to the website, Amanda Green.
And here’s MGC member Dave Freer also asking for Tor to discipline an employee for her view: https://madgeniusclub.com/2015/06/08/communication-subjectivity/
Let’s move onto “manipulating the rules to make sure the unwashed masses couldn’t take away their darling awards ever again”. All rule changes happened slowly and democratically. The rule changes made nominations more inclusive and EPH (the most complex rule change) made it easier for Sad Puppy-sympathetic members to get works nominated and made it harder for a small clique to control nominations. Interesting that the Sad Puppies remain opposed to these rule changes, as the only thing they consistently prevent is a clean sweep on nominations by a well-organised slate campaign. The Sad Puppies claim that it was never their intention to sweep the nominations in the way that happened in 2015 and yet that consistently oppose (and still oppose) rule changes that prevent the thing they said they weren’t doing (and which help the thing they said they WERE trying to do). Revealing.
And moving onto: “there was a mass campaign to prevent authors and editors from winning simply because the “majority” didn’t like who nominated them”. There was certainly a campaign against the tactics used by the Sad Puppies and the Rabid Puppies. It was never *simply* because the majority didn’t like who nominated them, although that clearly didn’t help. Nor was there ever one unified position by the people who were not Sad Puppies.
And lastly: “the way you continue to conflate Rabids with Sads” One thing I can say with confidence about Greg is that he is very careful about categories and making distinctions between them. I’m not saying he’s always right and I can think of many occasions where I have disagreed strongly with him but I doubt he often conflates the Sads and Rabids. Certainly in the comment Amanda Green is replying to, he does the EXACT OPPOSITE of conflating the two:
“In 2015, the Rabid Puppies were a much larger group than the Sad Puppies. At least in terms of the Hugo Nominations, over 70% of the votes came from Rabids, not Sads. In 2016, the Sad Puppies pretty much disappeared. Not sure why you’d think otherwise–I thought people on both sides agreed with that.”https://madgeniusclub.com/2019/02/16/fanhistory/#comment-125538
The moral remains the same. The former Sad Puppies remain in denial and hence can’t move on while reality refuses to cooperate with their version of the past.