Here is an interesting idea from a source not famed for interesting ideas:
“I have said this elsewhere: it would be a moment of significant horror for Western progressives if, upon being visited by an advanced alien civilization, the aliens were discovered to be not only believers in a single, divine deity, but their general values and practices put a premium on chasteness, modesty, thrift, hard work, and the freedom and liberty of the individual, vs. the collective.”
https://twitter.com/BradRTorgersen/status/1657035315939360776
Imagine you were a society of people and a more technologically advanced society arrive where you lived on vessels that can travel distances beyond anything your society could imagine. This technologically advanced society is monotheistic and the dominant ideology claims that the individual can advance themselves via hard work, and clean living. That sounds…vaguely familiar.
Let’s think of a name for those aliens, let’s call them The Brotosh Umpire because they come from the planet of Broton and they also like cricket. Their titular leader is Queen Voctorium. Honestly, I have to agree with Mr Torgersen, I would be very worried when these aliens arrive with their mutton-chop facial hair, alien pith helmets and starchy puddings. My main concern would be their belief in “the freedom and liberty of the individual” would exclude “humans” (in this case) from counting as “individuals”, at least until we’d been sufficiently civilised and/or genocided out of existence.
I assume the emphasis on monotheism rests on the idea that terrestrial monotheists would find common cause and religious sympathy from the alien monotheists. Of course, these are imaginary aliens and maybe peaceful and respectful of cultural differences. However, among humans, monotheistic societies interacting with each other does not show across our history that monotheism leads to mutual respect of religious differences.
The point of the original argument is that the advanced technology of the alien society would be seen as a validation of the religion and cultural values of that society. I agree, some people probably would react that way. One way that religious beliefs have disseminated in history (other than conquest) has been through this kind of cultural admiration.
I wonder in this scenario how many people would adopt the culture of the aliens even if they weren’t belligerently trying to impose it? Probably quite a lot, which would be greeted with some dismay by (human) religious traditionalists. Assuming the aliens were not Victorian-style conquerors, how would human Christians (Muslims et al) feel about alien missionaries attempting to convert people to the more “advanced” form of monotheism of the aliens? Would the more dogmatic right-wing Christian even accept that the alien god is the same unitary divinity as the Christian god? I suspect some would not and instead insist that the alien god was either made up or satanic.
56 responses to “Victorians as aliens”
Why am I thinking of the Gothic Empire in the Nemesis the Warlock 2000AD strips?
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I’m reminded of a lost treasure from the soc.hist.what-if – James Nicoll’s “There’s Something About Titan”
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How could I read this? I only remember how to get newsgroups through dial-up and text-only, because I am Old.
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Sadly I think it really is lost – shwi archives appear to have been nuked hard, so unless James happens to have a copy, you’re out of luck
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Unitarians might navigate this best.
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Shouldn’t it be American conservatives that would horrified, or is the assumption that the shared monotheism (never mind that it’s shared with progressives as well) trumps their opposition to the liberty and freedom of individuals that are not American conservatives, and so on.
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Pretty transparent wish-fulfillment fantasy on Torgerson’s part, isn’t it? I mean, didn’t most of us go through the “wouldn’t it be cool if aliens arrived and told everyone how smart and cool science-fiction fans are” phase in eighth grade?
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Yep, sounds like a peculiar contortion of “the lurkers support me in email”.
And, Brad, it’s chastity, particularly when you park the word next to modesty.
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C’mon, after all these years you can’t seriously be expecting Bwad to like, know common English words.
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There’s a Flaming Carrot story (comics) where the alien front man suckers a group of Star Trek fans into building a teleporter so the other peaceful aliens came come down and visit — nobody but you Trekkies is willing to trust that we’re friendly!
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You’re right of course about the intended message of the argument and why it makes no sense in terms of human history. My own reaction to this scenario is a little different: if aliens showed up and had such a clear similarity to an idealized conservative idea of human culture— that is, if phrases like “believers in a single, divine deity … [putting] a premium on chasteness, modesty, thrift, hard work, and the freedom and liberty of the individual, vs. the collective” were not just strained analogies some observers were making, but the aliens’ self-description in unambiguous terms— I would just assume it’s a scam, which is also what I would assume if they showed up and came across just like Northern California liberal hedonists with opinions similar to myself and my friends. Because these aren’t British colonialists; they’re freaking space aliens who share absolutely no biological or cultural history with us, so it’s incredibly unlikely for them to have such recognizable qualities in such a familiar mix. Either they’re telling us what they think we want to hear (maybe to manipulate us, or maybe to protect themselves)… or these aren’t even aliens, they’re some unusually high-budget James O’Keefe scheme.
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Given who it is, I suspect he is imagining that the aliens are the crew of the original Battlestar Galactica
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Actually, I’d much rather have the crew of the original Battlestar Galactica and their fleet than Brad or any of his pals.
Also, the original Galactica crew never struck me as the sort of people who would try to impose their vaguely defined religion on others. As far chastity and modesty, one of the main characters was a prostitute, though they later turned her into a nurse. And the original Starbuck was a womaniser and gambler, though Apollo was a loving and monogamous single Dad.
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Yep, it would be the people like Braddles and other MAGAts who’d have a cow if the monotheistic aliens were all “We are superior because we’re made in Gleepthorp’s image, and you can be too if you worship Her.”
Projection as usual.
(Heck, most RWs , esp. Evangelicals, don’t even think “Brad T. 🙂” is a proper Christian. Definitely not believing in any of the creeds Nicene, Apostles, or even Athanasian — heretics! — what with three heavens, Adam and the archangel Michael being the same dude, and God creating Jesus through actual sexing with a woman. And his boys JS and BY certainly weren’t down with monogamy.)
Aliens are more likely to have nothing in common with us as Eli said, or who knows, maybe they’re all free-love bi-gender, agender or unigender socialists to have harmony in their far-traveling ships. They might even, gasp, object to Jello salad and love booze and tobacco.
Or maybe they’ve all become secular former Gleepthorpians, which is how they got so advanced.
And if we’re going with strict monotheism, the Jews and Muslims are looking better for that, frankly. YHWH, Allah — definitely the only dudes you worship there. Gleepthorp would approve of that much better.
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As a Western Progressive type person it wouldn’t be horror I would feel if Brad’s aliens arrived exactly as described. Either they would have some evidence to back up their beliefs (and just having the technology to make the trip proves none of their claims) in which case I would feel acceptance, or they wouldn’t and I would feel the same disappointment I feel when preached at by Brad.
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“Oh great. Now we got alien fundies too.”
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It sounds a lot like alien Pilgrim Fathers and we all know how that went.
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There’s a novel (the name of which evades me at the moment) which has aliens come to a small town in the Pacific Northwest claiming it is their long lost promised land (and expelling the American inhabitants).
Meanwhile, Mormon filk “Mormon Con” (Tune: “HeavenCon” by Kathy Mar – parody words by Michael Liebmann)
” There are Marriotts in the sky for all the Mormons when they die.
The way you lived your life on Earth determines which hotel you’ll go to.
Bring your favorite wife, and you’re guaranteed eternal life.
It just goes on and on, when you’re dead enough to go to Mormon Con. “
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“The Holy Land” by Zubrin (https://www.amazon.com/Holy-Land-Robert-Zubrin/dp/0974144304)
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If you leave out the religion and workshop it a little, you could pass the first 2.25 paragraphs as a previously unknown Ayn Rand. Thiel would buy that.
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Also …
progressives are dismayed by Trump’s predatory promiscuity
progressives are dismayed by Trump’s narcissistic arrogance
progressives are dismayed by Trump’s extravagance
progressives are dismayed by Trump’s laziness and grift
While Trump is the face of American conservatism conservative attempt to claim those particular virtues ring hollow.
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The argument reminds me a little of Pascal’s wager, which is also an assumption that it’s impossible to imagine a worldview that includes a god and an afterlife, but is more hostile to Christians than to secularism.
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The “monotheistic aliens with superior technology arrive and pose problems for autochthonous monotheists” issue was examined by Alice Sheldon (as James Tiptree, jr.) in “Help”. Things don’t go well for the autochthonous monotheists, especially as a second set, belonging to a different disposition of the same faith, arrive and begin fighting the first. Sheldon seemed to think that monotheists, wherever they’re from, are intolerant and schism prone (and their schismatics are intolerant of one another).
There was a Greg Benford short on this general topic as well – “Proselytes” – in which Earth is first inundated with the extraterrestrial equivalent of Jehovah’s Witnesses (literally going door to door politely evangelizing but easily deterred), followed by the arrival of a much more militant faith that deals peremptorily with the first lot. He doesn’t tell us how they go on to deal with humanity but it’s not hard to guess.
One of Vernor Vinge’s early stories (“Conquest by Default”) dealt with the imposition of something like right-libertarianism by technologically-superior aliens upon post-nuclear war human nations, because it made us easier for them to deal with. Religion doesn’t come into it but the inability to see why anyone would reject right-anarchy sounds familiar.
So none of these examples are really all that reassuring.
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Yeah, but we know Braddles hasn’t read anything that wasn’t published before he was born. Remember when Pups* were looking for the new new new Heinlein** and he admitted he hadn’t read “Starship Troopers”?! The short book with all the pew pew anyone could want, and the military in charge of everything.
*I am still a monopuppist.
** Off-hand, in my fannish years, both Scalzi and Spider Robinson*** were “the new Heinlein”, and that’s just the guys I’ve hung out with. Lots more, I’m sure. And not forgetting Tim and Colt, of course.
*** One a smidge left-wing who doesn’t believe women are inferior; one an absolutely unreconstructed hippie. Yet Spider and RAH were personal friends; hmmm, almost as if they could get past politics and just enjoy talking.
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He also hasn’t read very much published after he was born.
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It’s all too woke for him. He might get exposed to thoughts of people who aren’t SWM theistic Americans and need to clutch his pearls. Of course we know he’s afraid of jewelry so it can’t be. QED.
Also, let’s face it, putting a full stop after “published” in your statement would be the most correct. And perilously close to having no writing career now.
When I think of him, I hear Forrest Gump saying “I’m not a smart man”, except Forrest was always kind and not prejudiced. So he’s like FG’s evil mirror universe self.
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I imagine a kind of reverse Sparrow as Brad is invited by the aliens to return with them, only to discover with horror that due to (godless) relativistic effects, many years have passed and that following the latest in a series of religious wars, the aliens back home have all become atheistic woke communists (the worst kind of communists …!)
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Ah, religious conservatives’ notorious enthusiasm for supporting freedom of the individual over the collective …he’s a funny man.
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Especially when it comes to space travel. It is well known that landing on the Moon was the individual achievement of Neil Armstrong, Solo Astronaut and not some vast project combining the work of thousands of people, organized by a government and publicly funded. Suggesting otherwise is ungodly communism.
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TBF, Neil did have a sidekick, but he could still be the Lone Hero.
(Apologies to Buzz)
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I thought Neil Armstrong, Solo Astronaut fit Brad’s theme better than Neil And Some Asshole (further apologies to Buzz who could probably still kick my ass if he tried) to explain what the abbreviation on all the fan merchandise stood for.
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I take your point!
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Obviously it is the “Neil Armstrong Space Agency”. Just one individual who did everything.
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That would be an agent, not an agency. Anyway, isn’t agency one of those things the woke communists want women and other not-men characters to have? That doesn’t sound like a manly christian virtue.
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What I don’t get is why would the space traveling aliens be thrifty? Is he saying they had to save up through hard work to buy their galaxy-spanning spaceship? Why would they have any type of monetary currency at all and what exactly would it consist of? If they’re thrifty, they aren’t going to give the virtuous conservatives any of their advanced technology for free now, are they? And they would probably recycle their pee as drinking water. Chastely and modestly.
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I mean, they gotta recycle it on the ISS, and that’s circling a planet full of the stuff that sends regular supplies. Of course going across the galaxy would need that. You can’t tell me that the Enterprises didn’t recycle.
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As the Enterprise leaves a planet at the end of an episode, gigantic grey- and black-water tanks have their contents transported into a local ocean. If no ocean is available, a new planetary ice ring…
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I suppose they could beam it into space with the transporters set on diffuse, turning it into individual molecules of water, etc. or indeed into atoms or subatomic particles. But dumping it is easier. So many hitherto unknown planets must have ice rings with organic material.
I wonder if Scotty complained about people flushing inappropriate things down the toilet. Would have been worse for Geordi, what with kids aboard.
I think they’d recycle a lot, and much better than we do. You never know when you’re going to end up on a planet without much water.
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Bob Kanefsky’s “The Comforts of Home”
(“Who checks the airlocks, any how?”)
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What a terrible waste of reaction mass.
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The really horrifying part of Brad’s scenario, from this Catholic’s POV, is having to explain to those monotheistic aliens that God Himself incarnated on earth to directly teach us how to order our days in His peace, so that we could live abundantly and without fear, and we flat-out murdered Him. Super awkward.
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Even more horrifying would be Brad trying to explain Mormonism to aliens.
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Horrifying for them, hilarious for everyone else.
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And now I can’t stop thinking of Bob Newhart’s skit about Walter Raleigh explaining what tobacco is over the ‘phone!
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Hi Bob! *drink*
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The weird thing is, based on my (admittedly rather imperfect) understanding of Mormon theology, where the really good Mormons can end up getting their own worlds in the afterlife, it actually makes a strange sort of sense that aliens might be Mormons within that worldview, because that’s where the next round of gods come from.
There’s a reason why there are so many SF writers from the Latter Day Saints church: the theology reads like a space opera story in places. (Not to mention why people have made comparisons with Scientology, albeit with a much higher degree of respectability.)
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Only the really good married men with children, of course. Which, if the aliens aren’t humanoid, poses problems.
And it did give us Battlestar Galactica.
I wouldn’t be surprised if LRH decided, “What if I made up even weirder theology than Mormons, but used it as a money-making scam?”
(He really did say “the best way to get rich is by starting a religion”. I have heard testimony from guys who were at parties with him, who I trust. I LOL with one of them at a party decades later when Battlefield Earth tanked.)
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According to Harlan Ellison, it came up that way when LRH complained about money. And he would talk openly about it and LRH told his devotees they couldn’t harass Ellison.
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I have sometimes wondered if Moldvay’s Lords of Creation RPG was inspired by Mormon theology.
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Which goes to my point about these aliens preferring Jews or Muslims.
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That Brad can look at the abundant variety of means of reproduction available on Earth (parthenogenesis, cloning, random pollination, and so forth), consider that an alien ecosystem would likely generate even more exotic methods, and yet think that an alien “chasteness” would be easily identifiable as the human ‘virtue’ of chastity shows a sadly painful lack of imagination for a purported science fiction writer.
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I like your use of “purported” there.
I used to go to a panel entitled “Alien Sex” at cons which was all about non-sexual reproduction of Earth species as models for aliens.
Remember, the largest life form on this planet is a giant fungus, and the heaviest is a big grove of aspen tree clones. What if the aliens were insectoid, shellfish, lizards, or birds? All female and worshiping The Great Ancestress of All.
SF-wise, there’s always artificial wombs and controlled reproduction thereby.
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I’ve been at a panel like that; it was sold as more a ‘design an alien’ panel, but yeah. The panel in question was hosted by Julie Czerneda, who actually is a biologist by training, and so she actually knows what she’s talking about in detail when she starts going into weird reproductive methods that we already know exist on Earth.
I mean, heck, there are single-celled organisms that undergo sexual ‘conjugation’ in which two organisms exchange genetic material with each other. All reproduction is still by fission/cloning, but since they can swap genetic material at other stages via a partial merge, you don’t get the same sort of ‘everybody’s a clone’ weakness that the simplest organisms have. (Check out the paramecium.)
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“Alien Sex” is a title that brings in the punters. 😉 It was later at night, and 18+ only. It also included weird sex organs/methods of larger animals, like bees and the sexual organs of female hyenas.
I have loved paramecia since I first saw them in grade school. Those little cilia are fun to watch. (This is one of the places I know people are nodding in agreement with that.)
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Well, yes, but this one wasn’t supposed to be an 18+ panel, even if it sort of turned into one if you’re sufficiently prudish for discussions of pollination techniques to qualify.
And yes, paramecia are one of those things that completely blows away the usual concept of single-celled organisms as all being relatively undifferentiated blobs. They’re actually quite complex for what is still technically a single cell.
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That’s the sort of thing Jack Cohen used to do. Reproductive Biology was his subject.
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