Just a heads up…

I’ve got some pro-gamergate comments in a queue for approval in the last Debarkle chapter. I’m not averse to having them in the comment thread but I’m wary of escalation. Fine to reply to them but if people could be chill, that would be good and people may wish to avoid the comments.


39 responses to “Just a heads up…”

  1. I’d rather you didn’t publish them at all, in the spirit of not giving a platform to hate speech. But it’s your blog and I respect your decisions as moderator.

    Liked by 2 people

        • True but the question at hand is whether the supposed ‘positive’ side of Gamergate was genuine or just a cover for right-wing harassment (or genuine and a cover). That’s a question I’m OK with examining (within limits) because it is pertinent to later events, especially Qanon.

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      • “Gamergate was misunderstood” was just part of the dishonest harassment campaign. It was gaslighting the victims of Gamergate by claiming they weren’t actually being harassed, they were just the subjects of an “ethics in gaming journalism” movement.

        The comments are Sea Lioning. They are dishonest through and through, and allowing them is allowing Gamergaters to continue to try to harass and attack women by minimizing and deflecting.

        There is nothing of value to be gained from allowing any Gamergater to speak any more.

        Liked by 1 person

      • They weren’t of that kind. They were of the kind “Lets discuss Zoe Quinn’s personal relationships and hang them out with accusations, as if that had anything to do with ethics in gaming journalism”.

        It was letting the harassment against her continue.

        Liked by 1 person

      • It was letting the harassment against her continue.

        Exactly.

        And it is because of this that I am going to say this now. I have seen some people talking about nominating either this series of blog posts as Best Related Work or Cam as Best Fan Writer for the Hugos next year. If that happens, the fact that Cam let those comments through and essentially allowed his post to be used as yet another forum for a Gamergater to engage gaslighting and harassment is reason enough that I will place either of those nominations behind No Award.

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  2. Won’t promise anything regarding “being chill”. I personally think it is better when people aren’t chill on such subjects.

    Liked by 2 people

    • If the host of a forum specifically requests some limit on engagement, I personally would respect that request. If you think that’s unreasonable then why not instead ask Cam not to publish the comments?

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    • If the host of a forum specifically asks others to chill in front of abuse, I will not respect that request.

      And starting to hang out an individuals private life and relations together with accusations is abuse. And yes, I think the comments shouldn’t have been published. But they were.

      Liked by 2 people

        • Understood. I don’t think I’m adding to that in this case. I appreciate that people will have issue with that but looking at some unpleasant movements is something I do and that means sometimes talking to people with who say awful things. Not normally here but I’ve reasons this time. It won’t be a regular thing.

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      • Oh I guess that’s okay then. You’re not going to allow harassment and gaslighting on a regular basis in the comments, but only just this once.

        Actually, I’m not sure how that’s okay. You’ve screwed up here Cam. You should admit it and fix it.

        Liked by 1 person

    • @Hampus: And yes, I think the comments shouldn’t have been published. But they were

      To be clear, I wasn’t aware that your comment was written after Cam had already published the comments; I thought you were basically saying “no matter what they were, I’ll make no promises.” If not, then my reply wasn’t relevant.

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  3. Given the title, I’m dusappointed this oost wasn’t just a picture of one side of a coin instead.

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  4. Among other things, letting those through moderation probably helps you as field research, in the sense of extending your understanding of what the Gamergaters were alleging and are still saying in 2021. So, I hope it is useful pragmatically. Whether so or not, obviously: your house, your rules.

    As to them giving new offence, I remain very leery of people taking theatrical public offence on behalf of strangers for apparently polemical reasons and pat themselves on the back for so doing, no matter whether those people taking offence are on my “side” or not. That’s in my big list of dumb rhetorical tricks that ought to have been left behind in the comp.os.*.advocacy newsgroups.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. Your house and I did some posts back to the one nonsense spewer you let through. I won’t be doing it much further though. These folk are little different from QAnon grifters.

    Liked by 1 person

  6. Fuck ’em. They have plenty of platforms of their own, and they’re only coming here to shitpost.

    I wouldn’t let them in my house to bother my guests, but *shrug*

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  7. Speaking of assholes, JDA finally replied to Worldcon’s excellent take-down with pages and pages of “Nuh-UH!!!” and a strange fascination with repeated comparing himself to trans people.*

    Also, his shitty lawyer had a couple of irrelevant WTF Exhibits rejected by the court for not filling in the forms correctly. LOLOLOLOL.

    https://portal.scscourt.org/search
    Case # 18CV334547

    *There. I’ve saved you many valuable minutes reading the repetitive mess.

    Liked by 2 people

      • I’m not even exaggerating. Page after page of “Nuh-UH!”, mostly copy and paste.

        But having the Exhibits (print-outs of .gov web pages) rejected is *chef kiss*

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    • …and a strange fascination with repeated comparing himself to trans people.

      Oh. So he’s had an organised campaign by the Religious Reich to enact laws designed to specifically discriminate against his participation in society and obtaining proper health care this year?

      Yeah, I didn’t think so.

      Why, oh why do sh!tty cis people try and claim victim status using false comparisons?

      Liked by 5 people

    • They also simply want to waste your time. That’s why they Gish gallop so many bullshit claims – they know they will consume your attention and effort trying to respond to them, so the fact that they are all basically lies isn’t important. What is important is keeping you occupied responding to their bullshit.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Another very good reason not to give them yet another platform and chance at claiming legitimacy.
        Cam, you’re not required to give haters a venue. Let them host their hate on their own dime.

        Liked by 1 person

      • One thing that sort of impresses me is how much of what they say isn’t exactly lies, just … irrelevant. And, in many cases both lies and irrelevant. There’s a lot of nitpicking and a lot of meta-debate, but for most of it my reaction is “so maybe that’s true, but so what?” rather than “wow, if that’s true it changes my perception of gamergate”.

        Liked by 2 people

        • The irrelevance in particular is what is interesting. There is a massive volume of but-look-at-this and when you do it is either thin or doesn’t really connect one thing with another. Take this massive focus on trying to establish that Quinn really is a bad person. If we accept that is the case (for arguments sake) what was the plan? Discredit all the bad people in game development starting with the developer of an indie text game about depression? There is zero sense (or ethics) in that plan.

          Even somebody trying to convince people that Gamergate wasn’t primarily a misogynist harassment campaign, is still trying to prosecute the case against Quinn.

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      • Because it is a giant misogynic hate campaign against women as uppity. So if Quinn is bad, then women are bad and should shut up about games, not participate in games, bow down to the gamer boys, be violently harmed for not giving them sex, etc., anything that makes them feel less in power and status. Women (and the non-binary) can be persecuted because they are the inferior serfs; men (the lords) cannot be unless they are seen as standing up for women and the non-binary.

        The excuses are hand-waving, but if you get into it with them, they have to be countered and declared as nasty as they are. You have to deny that what they are doing is reasonable in the society.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Looking at that entry now, I see that the little Gamergater didn’t respond after attempting unsuccessfully to compare Quinn to Joss Whedon. He just repeated the comparison to Whedon lower down to someone else, saying it was about having affairs with co-workers which was abusive and that Quinn got no guff for it, but Whedon did. But as we know, having relationships with co-workers is not necessarily abusive, whereas Whedon was revealed to have sexually exploited and harassed his employees, an abuse of power. Quinn may have had a relationship with one of their bosses, in which case the boss was being exploitive and abusive of power, not them. And Quinn’s supposed sex life was the subject of a mass harassment campaign, whereas Whedon faced very little consequences so far for the abuses he was revealed to have done.

      So it’s a bizarre comparison, but they think it’s telling because the goal is simply to say that someone who advocates civil rights, enters what they consider their turf and/or criticizes what they believe inferiors have no right to criticize deserves repression, abuse and punishment. The reality for the Gamergaters is that their attempt to make Quinn’s sex life justification for harassment and stalking, followed by a fake scandal that Quinn was corrupt, didn’t end up working that well. They had to switch to Sarkeesian and others, escalating and escalating, making more and more detailed conspiracy theories of dire behavior. They kept trying to claim that catching an individual in a position that was less than perfect or which they decided was hypocritical or suspect therefore perfectly justified mass harassment campaigns on and offline and death and bomb threats.

      So the next thing they did down the road was try to blame Quinn for the suicide of a serial harasser and abuser. Quinn was not the man’s only victim, but had been in a relationship with him. When multiple claims came out about him, he took his own life. Gamergaters, as this little one you let in did, tried to build complicated justifications that Quinn caused the guy’s death and so was again evil. And therefore feminists are evil, women in games who are critical or seen as pushy are evil, etc. It’s a contagion approach.

      And this is also what Beale does and what the Puppies did. When one claim or rationale gets debunked, they made a new one. They escalated and escalated and built ever more complex conspiracy theories — from authors are organizing voting slates to authors are rigging the election itself to Tor is running the whole thing and bribing everyone, etc. We got to see that in real time when various jibes at Camestros were then turned into an entire conspiracy theory complete with doxing about him and the Meadows family. They just kept escalating it each time it was debunked.

      So what you got to see, Camestros, with your experiment, is how grievance authoritarianism is maintained and how persecution narratives are built. What you are really detailing here is how the various people in the Puppies escalated their sense of grievance and abusive behavior, no matter how illogical it got. It’s not really just a political progression. It’s personal grievances that are then given a societal justification to attack people to bolster their sense of status. It doesn’t matter if it’s a claim that’s irrelevant, inconsistent, irrational, false equivalency or outright lie; the important thing is to keep claiming it and increase the claims and a sense of threat from targeted enemies if the first claims don’t stick.

      When the Puppies started, some people were somewhat sympathetic, either because they felt there was too much criticism about civil rights issues and star authors like Resnick going on in the field and/or because they felt it wasn’t totally invalid to say that conservative or old style SFF were getting less consideration for awards and maybe raising awareness of that fiction was a good thing. But the Puppies kept having to escalate and lost a lot of support and tolerance. The Gamergaters also originally got some consideration because there were ethical issues in the gaming industry and game journalism and because some thought there’d been too much criticism of gamer boys (while totally writing off harassment and criticism of women in the gaming industry of course.) But the Gamergaters got so virulent in harassment and partially co-opted by right wing media that they lost non-gator support as they kept escalating their claims and threats.

      We use the phrase “double-down” a lot in these cases and that’s really what happens. They commit to an anti-rights argument and they have to keep doubling down to keep it going. That’s the root of Jessica’s example about the bar and the neo-Nazi punk person and the idea of the gish gallop. Escalation — of paranoia, of grievance, of conspiracy theory, etc.

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  8. You can’t even let them in the door,

    Liked by 3 people

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