There’s a core issue here. Dave Freer appears to literally be unable to imagine the various people he is attacking now as human beings. The people applauding his honesty at Mad Genius, when a simple 2 minute Google search would reveal some of his assertion are demonstrable lies, are actively hiding from truth.
56 responses to “Two Posts Relevant to the Freer Piece”
My only criticism of Hines’ piece is that he is adopting Antonelli’s “three sources” line. Antonelli says three sources gave him to same evidence. That’s not three sources. That’s one source being funneled through three mouths.
Yup. My working theory is that Dave spread his theory around the MGC and associated peeps over time, and several of them mentioned this to Antonelli who decided that hearing the story three times made it true.
Aaron – where did Antonelli say the three anonymous sources had given him the same evidence? I can update the wording of my post to clarify that point.
I stand by my sources, and I rely on the old journalistic standard that if a source insists on remaining anonymous, you must have a minimum of two of them with the same story. That goes back to Watergate. One of the reasons we see so much “fake news” these days is that people will accept a lone anonymous source which cannot be verified. In the case of Felapton, I had three different people who had the same evidence.
Aaron: My only criticism of Hines’ piece is that he is adopting Antonelli’s “three sources” line. Antonelli says three sources gave him to same evidence. That’s not three sources. That’s one source being funneled through three mouths.
That’s not even one source. A source is someone with information and the evidence to back it up.
What the incompetent journalist Lou Antonelli has published isn’t a source, it’s gossip.
All puppies have one thing in common and it’s *not* that they are conservatives. It is that they are conspiracy theorists. Pizzagate, gamergate, Hugos, always ready to believe the next weirdly puzzled together pet theory.
It has been like this all the time, just conspiracy on conspiracy.
Speaking of which, I notice that Infogalactic (remember that?) has a page defending Ella Draper, a woman currently on the run from the British authorities after torturing her own children:
“2014 The Hampstead Cover-Up of an alleged Satanic cult in North London, UK, involving parents, teachers, and police, based on the leaked testimony of 9 and 8 year old children [NAMES OF CHILDREN REMOVED]. Ella Gareeva-Draper, the Russian mother, was never accused and was only ever guilty of not knowing when, how, or that her children were being abused. Her children were taken from her, and she and their Russian family have not seen her children in years.”
That paragraph’s been up since June.
Pizzagaters love Draper because she claims the kids she abused were *actually* the victims of a satanic cult that eats babies in fast food outlets. Seriously, that’s what she says.
Their whole idea of child abuse is centered around the belief that perpetrators must be either gay, involved with secret cults or sinister strangers hiding in the bushes. This is not only paranoid and homophobic, it actively harms and endangers the victims/survivors of child abuse, because it sidetracks, obfuscates, and thwarts attempts of education.
Russian, eh? And that entry’s making a big deal out of it. I’d like to see the IP address that came from — one of Head Homophobe KGB Vlad’s fake news factories, maybe? The boys in St. Petersburg putting out more junk like they did on FB during the 2016 election?
I guess they’re too uninformed to realize that the Satanic Panic thing turned out to be entirely bogus due to dodgy shrinks and over-eager lawyers.
And that most pedophiles are straight men (like gymnastics coaches), and most child abusers of all kinds are also in conventional relationships. Like married women who beat their children.
I popped over to the MGC post Hines referenced to see if there were any comments showing a modicum of decency. Nope. They’ve gone full Gamergate with this, barely even bothering to pretend they are being rational or decent.
I just had a look and now he’s threatening that guy that if he doesn’t shut up he’ll post things a HR department wouldn’t like about the Meadows or me or somebody. Seriously…why not just BLOCK the guy if he bugs him that much?
And Jayn points out that Jim Hines actually did blog about the MZB/Breen thing, whereupon they promptly accuse him from only blogging about it once and not bringing it up all the time.
I don’t think I’ve blogged about it again since then, but it’s certainly come up in conversations on Facebook and elsewhere. But I’m sure if I dug up more links, the goalposts would simply run away again.
To Dave’s credit, it looks like he acknowledged his error and updated the post… and then talked about how I didn’t do enough to condemn MZB’s political side and the groups she and Breen belonged to? To be honest, I’m not entirely sure what he’s trying to accuse me of there, and I can’t tell if he actually believes what he’s writing or if he’s just trying to save face.
Jim C. Hines: and then talked about how I didn’t do enough to condemn MZB’s political side and the groups she and Breen belonged to? To be honest, I’m not entirely sure what he’s trying to accuse me of there
Most of the Puppies were never involved with Worldcon until they tried to cheat themselves and their friends into getting Hugos in 2015. A lot of them have never been involved in fandom at all. So they don’t really register that:
1) Breen was banned from attending Worldcon more than 50 years ago (1964).
2) MZB and Breen separated 40 years ago (1979).
3) MZB hasn’t attended a convention for 25 years, not since the early 1990s.
4) MZB died almost 20 years ago (1999).
5) Fans did not know what she had been doing to her children until it was revealed in 2014 by a long-time member of Worldcon after corresponding with MZB’s daughter.
And yet somehow, according Freer, fans should have been denouncing MZB for decades, based on something that they didn’t know about — but strangely, none of the Puppies were denouncing her during that time, either.
Pish tosh, JJ, please don’t try to inject reality or perspective into the pups’ rantings. For the pups, such things are the equivalent of sunlight to blind cave fish — they pass completely unnoticed.
Apparently, everybody must denounce MZB and Breen every chance they get or we are enabling them. Never mind that they’ve both been dead for a long time now.
Coincidentally, Nate Hoffelder also runs The Digital Reader, a site focussed on e-books. So he’s not someone you’d want to piss off, if you and your friends are indie writers and mainly rely on e-book sales.
There was a time when I thought the some of the Pups were redeemable. That time has long since passed. Every single person who continues their affiliation with that group is a terrible person who deserves nothing but scorn and derision.
Foz’s piece is deeply moving; she has very clearly been going through hell with serious health problems, and, just when things were beginning to get sorted, she’s attacked by slime balls whose lives are apparently so impoverished that they need conspiracy theories to make themselves feel important.
Said slimeballs bewilder me; do they not realise the damage they do to their own reputations? Perhaps it’s because I’m English, and therefore accustomed to our strong laws against libel, but they would be unwise to assume that there are no legal remedies available to those who find themselves harassed in this fashion…
This should be coming from my actual IP address (Aberdeen/Berkeley, California). That last should have been somewhere in Australia. I’m working out whether my mind can hop bodies or my body can teleport, but I’m pretty sure it’s one or the other.
Kathodus, let me know when you figure it out. I’d like to go to Australia even if only through the astral plane. Maybe Astral Plane Australia doesn’t have so many deadly creatures on it and take a whole day to fly to.
I have so much respect for Foz and Toby from this post. They are hard-working classy people who don’t deserve any of this toxic crap from people who are completely opposite.
What really gets me about the insistence about denouncing MZB is that it amounts to virtue signalling. If you didn’t denounce her loud enough, shame on you.
I would make that point over there except Freer kicked me out of the comment section.
Nate, being banned by Dave is an exclusive club, welcome. Meetings are on Tuesdays 🙂
I see Dave has now fully incorporated Cam’s Brexit Joke tweet into his theory, which I guess shows his reading comprehension isn’t improving.
More interesting though is that demand he made of you and everyone else that posted, that you provide him with a list of alternative suspects. That seems to me to be a thinly disguised version of “give me a very short list with CF’s real name on”. Even if I did know some Aussie fans who did fit the bill I certainly wouldn’t expose them to Dave’s ramshackle target choosing at this point.
LOL – I just found that comment. He’s really digging into the Aberdeen thing. Why bluff so badly on that point? He surely must have checked IP’s by now and Foz M has clarified when they moved where.
It turns a vague theory into an easily disproved one.
To an outsider, that seems to be one of the worst things (well, not as bad as the virulent homophobia, but up there) about this; how transparently they’re basically going “OK, we know it’s not you, but we’re going to keep harrassing you until you name some other people we can harrass.” Again, it seems like one large conspiracy circle jerk where everyone, literally everyone, who is Not Them is part of the same cabal.
Now I’m reminded of an exchange in RASFF, back in 2001:
rasff, 20010101, 10:10 pm
Mark A** wrote:
> Loren M** writes:
> > I don’t know of -any- of the people I was involved with, associated
> > with, or knew to one degree or another during the 60s and 70s who
> > doesn’t understand that, despite what we accomplished, there was
> > much we did wrong,
> Okay, let’s see a list. What do *you* think that “you of your
> generation” did “wrong”? And what are “you Boomers” doing about each
> of them now?
For the crimes of all the boomers
We shall pass a stern decree
They’ll make a little list
A blame the boomers list
We’ll demand that they indict themselves
And take the rap for me
And write a little list
Or else I will be pissed:
There’s the crime of being born too soon
And breathing all the air,
There’s the shame of hearing Elvis croon
And growing silly hair
The sin of booing Nixon
And insulting Reagan’s wife,
The evil of our druggie ways
And dissipated life,
And the smuggest of offenders
Those environmentalists
They’d better write their lists
Or I will shake my fists.
(Chorus: We must write a little list
Yes, a very thorough list
And if anything we’ve missed,
Our keesters may be kissed!)
—
–Kip (Williams)
former chorus boy, at http:[long-dead address]
It would have been ideal for this to have come up under the “little list” post, but ideal opportunities only come up in television shows. If the attributions are confusing, Mark wrote the “Okay, let’s see a list…” bits, and I wrote the verses, with no help from anyone named Gilbert or Sullivan.
I just had this vision of going over there and telling Dave that I had that list of suspects he demanded, but I would only post them after he posted his evidence. Right now I am entertaining myself pondering exactly how Dave might argue i should go first.
I know it would be wrong to troll Dave like that but please allow me to enjoy the thought of doing so.
What’s that skippy?
Tchk tchk tchk,
Strewth, Dave’s fallen down a well of his own inadequacy and can’t do the decent thing and admit his error?
Tchk tchk tchk.
Nah, think we’ll just leave him there mate.
Camestros Felapton 
56 responses to “Two Posts Relevant to the Freer Piece”
My only criticism of Hines’ piece is that he is adopting Antonelli’s “three sources” line. Antonelli says three sources gave him to same evidence. That’s not three sources. That’s one source being funneled through three mouths.
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I’m assuming now that anything Lou wrote is not connected to reality. Any aspect that turns out to be true would be coincidental.
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You will never go wrong assuming that one of the Pups is simply making things up to suit their conspiracy theory of the day.
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Yup. My working theory is that Dave spread his theory around the MGC and associated peeps over time, and several of them mentioned this to Antonelli who decided that hearing the story three times made it true.
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Aaron – where did Antonelli say the three anonymous sources had given him the same evidence? I can update the wording of my post to clarify that point.
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Hey Jim…
Post was here: http://louantonelli.blogspot.com/2018/01/pay-no-attention-to-that-man-behind.html
Quote:
I stand by my sources, and I rely on the old journalistic standard that if a source insists on remaining anonymous, you must have a minimum of two of them with the same story. That goes back to Watergate. One of the reasons we see so much “fake news” these days is that people will accept a lone anonymous source which cannot be verified. In the case of Felapton, I had three different people who had the same evidence.
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Thanks, sfrazer2015!
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I have been beaten to the punch on a question that was addressed to me!
In other words, thanks sfrazer2015! I am grateful I didn’t have to go back and sort through Lou’s delusional rants to find the quote.
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Aaron: My only criticism of Hines’ piece is that he is adopting Antonelli’s “three sources” line. Antonelli says three sources gave him to same evidence. That’s not three sources. That’s one source being funneled through three mouths.
That’s not even one source. A source is someone with information and the evidence to back it up.
What the incompetent journalist Lou Antonelli has published isn’t a source, it’s gossip.
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Foz Meadows is showing remarkable dignity in the face of some really vile behaviour towards her and her family.
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All puppies have one thing in common and it’s *not* that they are conservatives. It is that they are conspiracy theorists. Pizzagate, gamergate, Hugos, always ready to believe the next weirdly puzzled together pet theory.
It has been like this all the time, just conspiracy on conspiracy.
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Good point
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Speaking of which, I notice that Infogalactic (remember that?) has a page defending Ella Draper, a woman currently on the run from the British authorities after torturing her own children:
“2014 The Hampstead Cover-Up of an alleged Satanic cult in North London, UK, involving parents, teachers, and police, based on the leaked testimony of 9 and 8 year old children [NAMES OF CHILDREN REMOVED]. Ella Gareeva-Draper, the Russian mother, was never accused and was only ever guilty of not knowing when, how, or that her children were being abused. Her children were taken from her, and she and their Russian family have not seen her children in years.”
That paragraph’s been up since June.
Pizzagaters love Draper because she claims the kids she abused were *actually* the victims of a satanic cult that eats babies in fast food outlets. Seriously, that’s what she says.
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picard-face-palm.jpg
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Their whole idea of child abuse is centered around the belief that perpetrators must be either gay, involved with secret cults or sinister strangers hiding in the bushes. This is not only paranoid and homophobic, it actively harms and endangers the victims/survivors of child abuse, because it sidetracks, obfuscates, and thwarts attempts of education.
LikeLiked by 5 people
Russian, eh? And that entry’s making a big deal out of it. I’d like to see the IP address that came from — one of Head Homophobe KGB Vlad’s fake news factories, maybe? The boys in St. Petersburg putting out more junk like they did on FB during the 2016 election?
I guess they’re too uninformed to realize that the Satanic Panic thing turned out to be entirely bogus due to dodgy shrinks and over-eager lawyers.
And that most pedophiles are straight men (like gymnastics coaches), and most child abusers of all kinds are also in conventional relationships. Like married women who beat their children.
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I popped over to the MGC post Hines referenced to see if there were any comments showing a modicum of decency. Nope. They’ve gone full Gamergate with this, barely even bothering to pretend they are being rational or decent.
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There’s one at the bottom where someone points out that Freer is wrong regarding the MZB thing, but they are quickly sealioned
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Nate Hoffelder is fighting the good fight over there, but he seems to be the only one.
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I just had a look and now he’s threatening that guy that if he doesn’t shut up he’ll post things a HR department wouldn’t like about the Meadows or me or somebody. Seriously…why not just BLOCK the guy if he bugs him that much?
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And Jayn points out that Jim Hines actually did blog about the MZB/Breen thing, whereupon they promptly accuse him from only blogging about it once and not bringing it up all the time.
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I don’t think I’ve blogged about it again since then, but it’s certainly come up in conversations on Facebook and elsewhere. But I’m sure if I dug up more links, the goalposts would simply run away again.
To Dave’s credit, it looks like he acknowledged his error and updated the post… and then talked about how I didn’t do enough to condemn MZB’s political side and the groups she and Breen belonged to? To be honest, I’m not entirely sure what he’s trying to accuse me of there, and I can’t tell if he actually believes what he’s writing or if he’s just trying to save face.
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The fact that he’s showing even that tiny modicum of shame is miraculous
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Jim C. Hines: and then talked about how I didn’t do enough to condemn MZB’s political side and the groups she and Breen belonged to? To be honest, I’m not entirely sure what he’s trying to accuse me of there
Most of the Puppies were never involved with Worldcon until they tried to cheat themselves and their friends into getting Hugos in 2015. A lot of them have never been involved in fandom at all. So they don’t really register that:
1) Breen was banned from attending Worldcon more than 50 years ago (1964).
2) MZB and Breen separated 40 years ago (1979).
3) MZB hasn’t attended a convention for 25 years, not since the early 1990s.
4) MZB died almost 20 years ago (1999).
5) Fans did not know what she had been doing to her children until it was revealed in 2014 by a long-time member of Worldcon after corresponding with MZB’s daughter.
And yet somehow, according Freer, fans should have been denouncing MZB for decades, based on something that they didn’t know about — but strangely, none of the Puppies were denouncing her during that time, either.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Pish tosh, JJ, please don’t try to inject reality or perspective into the pups’ rantings. For the pups, such things are the equivalent of sunlight to blind cave fish — they pass completely unnoticed.
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Apparently, everybody must denounce MZB and Breen every chance they get or we are enabling them. Never mind that they’ve both been dead for a long time now.
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He’s a homophobic bigot who is terrorizing people with threats. Is he going to up-date that?
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Coincidentally, Nate Hoffelder also runs The Digital Reader, a site focussed on e-books. So he’s not someone you’d want to piss off, if you and your friends are indie writers and mainly rely on e-book sales.
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Ah…I wondered who he was. I think Dave assumes it is me in disguise.
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“I’m not entirely sure what he’s trying to accuse me of there”
Go figure. And him being so logical, consistent, and articulate, too!
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Yeah, the comments really are disgusting.
It reminds me of a long-ago quote: “Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?”
For that crowd, the answer is clearly NO.
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Oy! I may be the lone voice in the wilderness but at least I tried.
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Well thanks for trying 🙂
They’ve convinced themselves that anything they say are just words and anything said to the contrary is an appalling attack.
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There was a time when I thought the some of the Pups were redeemable. That time has long since passed. Every single person who continues their affiliation with that group is a terrible person who deserves nothing but scorn and derision.
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Foz’s piece is deeply moving; she has very clearly been going through hell with serious health problems, and, just when things were beginning to get sorted, she’s attacked by slime balls whose lives are apparently so impoverished that they need conspiracy theories to make themselves feel important.
Said slimeballs bewilder me; do they not realise the damage they do to their own reputations? Perhaps it’s because I’m English, and therefore accustomed to our strong laws against libel, but they would be unwise to assume that there are no legal remedies available to those who find themselves harassed in this fashion…
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Dave is in Australia attacking an Australian. Aus law is much closer to UK law…but also expensive like UK law.
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For those wishing to show support to Foz Meadows, she has a Patreon.
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That is an excellent idea. Thanks, JJ
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Hey, Camestros, what country am I coming from in this post?
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This should be coming from my actual IP address (Aberdeen/Berkeley, California). That last should have been somewhere in Australia. I’m working out whether my mind can hop bodies or my body can teleport, but I’m pretty sure it’s one or the other.
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Kathodus, let me know when you figure it out. I’d like to go to Australia even if only through the astral plane. Maybe Astral Plane Australia doesn’t have so many deadly creatures on it and take a whole day to fly to.
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On my phone so I can’t easily 😦
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Gondor
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I have so much respect for Foz and Toby from this post. They are hard-working classy people who don’t deserve any of this toxic crap from people who are completely opposite.
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What really gets me about the insistence about denouncing MZB is that it amounts to virtue signalling. If you didn’t denounce her loud enough, shame on you.
I would make that point over there except Freer kicked me out of the comment section.
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Nate, being banned by Dave is an exclusive club, welcome. Meetings are on Tuesdays 🙂
I see Dave has now fully incorporated Cam’s Brexit Joke tweet into his theory, which I guess shows his reading comprehension isn’t improving.
More interesting though is that demand he made of you and everyone else that posted, that you provide him with a list of alternative suspects. That seems to me to be a thinly disguised version of “give me a very short list with CF’s real name on”. Even if I did know some Aussie fans who did fit the bill I certainly wouldn’t expose them to Dave’s ramshackle target choosing at this point.
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LOL – I just found that comment. He’s really digging into the Aberdeen thing. Why bluff so badly on that point? He surely must have checked IP’s by now and Foz M has clarified when they moved where.
It turns a vague theory into an easily disproved one.
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Oh my and he REALLY over estimates the amount of effort I put into writing this shit.
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To an outsider, that seems to be one of the worst things (well, not as bad as the virulent homophobia, but up there) about this; how transparently they’re basically going “OK, we know it’s not you, but we’re going to keep harrassing you until you name some other people we can harrass.” Again, it seems like one large conspiracy circle jerk where everyone, literally everyone, who is Not Them is part of the same cabal.
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Yes, the whole “go find me more victims” demand was weird, wasn’t it?
It never ceases to surprise me when someone insists I do their work for them.
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Now I’m reminded of an exchange in RASFF, back in 2001:
It would have been ideal for this to have come up under the “little list” post, but ideal opportunities only come up in television shows. If the attributions are confusing, Mark wrote the “Okay, let’s see a list…” bits, and I wrote the verses, with no help from anyone named Gilbert or Sullivan.
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I just had this vision of going over there and telling Dave that I had that list of suspects he demanded, but I would only post them after he posted his evidence. Right now I am entertaining myself pondering exactly how Dave might argue i should go first.
I know it would be wrong to troll Dave like that but please allow me to enjoy the thought of doing so.
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Nate, that idea is like an extra piece of chocolate cake after an enormous meal: tempting, delicious, and to be resisted 🙂
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A partial list of people who might be posting as “Camestros Felapton,” based on either intuition or familiarity with this blog:
Dave Freer
Camestros Felapton
The Great and Powerful Oz
Captain Nemo
It’s a short list, but I’m happy with it.
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[submarine submerging noise]
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What’s that skippy?
Tchk tchk tchk,
Strewth, Dave’s fallen down a well of his own inadequacy and can’t do the decent thing and admit his error?
Tchk tchk tchk.
Nah, think we’ll just leave him there mate.
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