Meanwhile, Former Sad Pups Keep Digging the Hole Deeper

OK I’ve tried. Brad Torgersen (who has jumped on the bandwagon) is now claiming that me denying that I’m not the random target he has identified me as is evidence that I must be that person.

“Clark Kent’s first rule in denying he’s Superman — do not go on the front page of the Daily Planet, denying that you’re Superman.”

I’m in good company I guess. Apparently Rene Descartes found himself in a similar pickle with regard to the Rosicrucians. If he denied he was a Rosicrucian then he was doing EXACTLY what a Rosicrucian would do.

Meanwhile the other line emerging is that if I wasn’t the person they say they I am (which I’m not but never mind that) then I should reveal who I am to prove them wrong. Nope, that isn’t how that works.

  • Firstly the person who has been fuelling this bizarre thing has a track record of harassing people at work and filing fake police reports. I don’t think the majority of Sad Puppies would engage in such behaviour but the specific guy who first made the claim on Facebook? Yup, known for it and there are multiple documented cases of vindictive acts by them.
  • Secondly, I could give a name here and it would mean nothing. What the Pups want is an identity that means something to them and which confirms some sort of model in their heads (hence their current target). A name isn’t going to do that. The meat robot’s name certainly isn’t going to do that.
  • Thirdly, this is clearly not a rational discourse. None of the people claiming I’m X have considered why they think I’m X other than some other ad Puppy has asserted that I’m X.
  • Fourthly, aside from the absurdity of me having to co-operate with irrational harassment so that a known harasser can harass the right target, the actual evidence I’d have to give said harasser to convince them to harass the right target would be substantial proof of identity beyond what they currently have for their wrong target. Actually I’m not sure what would convince them as I obviously could fake an image of a driving licence etc.
  • Lastly it really, really, really isn’t my job to stop stupid evil people from attempting to do evil stupidly. I’ve pointed out the error and the Sad Pups are doubling down. Apparently Facebook took the original post down because it violated their community standards. A sensible person might take that as a hint from reality that they’ve crossed an ethical line.

All I can do at this point is apologise to the person the Puppies have decided to victimise.

 

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176 comments

  1. Chris M

    Brian: I’m not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
    Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
    Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
    Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!

    Is Brad Torgerson as stupid a he’s venal or as venal as he’s stupid?

    Liked by 6 people

      • Chris M

        The logic of course is the same. But ultimately this is all very silly high school level intrigue stuff. We’re all bit the web counterparts to ambulance chasers except only feelings get hurt.

        Like

  2. Msb

    I’ve heard this one before. If they throw you in the water, and you float, you’re guilty. If you drown, you’re innocent but dead. Either way, they get rid of you and you have no good choices.
    Nope, I don’t think I’d join in this game either.

    Liked by 3 people

      • camestrosfelapton

        Also, they are going to be so, so, pissed off with me when they realise I’m not this guy that they’ll probably do something even more stupid.

        They are literally trolling themselves with this nonsense. We’ve hit trollception, the singutrolluanity, the self-trolling trolls.

        Liked by 7 people

      • Mark Hepworth

        Yeah, I’ve seen the MGC article now. I mean, yes, their guess lives in Australia and knows about logic, but that’s like saying I live in the UK and like fantasy so I must be Mark Lawrence. There’s a gigantic heap of wishful thinking that all the people they dislike must be connected in some great big conspiracy. They can’t accept the idea that lots and lots of disparate people came together and said “that’s out of line” to the puppy stuff, so they keep on looking for connections (see also the Brianna Wu = SpaceFaringKitten nonsense)

        Liked by 4 people

      • camestrosfelapton

        I assume Dave Freer already understands that and I assume he’s the source of this nonsense. He’s been calling me ‘Fieldsy’ for awhile and I just assumed it was an in-joke I didn’t get but apparently it was a pun.

        Like

      • Mark Hepworth

        Fieldsy? I had to think about that one for a bit! That’s a bit obscure even for Dave.
        I suspect this’ll be a matter of being unable to reason people out of a position that they didn’t use reason to reach.
        It’s a bit unfortunate for not-you especially if they start giving him grief but it’s not actually your fault and there’s not much else you can do to stop them apart from saying they’ve got the wrong guy.

        Like

      • camestrosfelapton

        Well I’ve tried and denials are literally being taken as confirmation…now it’s starting to look like I’m trying to trick them into making further fools of themselves by telling them they are making fools of themselves.

        Liked by 5 people

      • Peer

        Mark, I think you just identified the core of the matter. Since they dont believe that many people can have opposing views, all people they DO know must be connected or even the same person. Its the “massive voter freud” fallacy of puppies. That is not just sad, thats quite… I dont know chaotic evil? Grim?

        Liked by 4 people

      • Bonnie McDaniel

        You don’t have to trick them, Cam. They make fools out of themselves perfectly well on their own.

        @Peer

        “massive voter freud”? That must be a Fraud-ian slip. 😀

        Liked by 1 person

  3. delagar

    It’s the sad truth, the worst thing you can do for these pups is read their actual words.

    That’s some amazing ignorance on display over there.

    Like

    • Lurkertype

      delagar, it always has been the worst. They’ve had it in for Mike Glyer for the “crime” of doing nothing but linking to their own articles/blogs/words for ages now. Even when Mike doesn’t editorialize, they have conniptions that he’s pointed out that they said something publicly.

      Liked by 3 people

  4. Kat Goodwin

    This is something they do periodically, right? Try to find you because they find you very threatening, etc.? Have they ever tagged another person before so that they can chase their Great Pumpkin or is this a new tactic?

    Like

    • Laura Resnick

      After all, it’s not as if he might write to the local police force and claim you’re a dangerous person who needs to be watched by law enforcement…
      Oh, wait…
      This just in…

      Liked by 2 people

  5. lunarg

    I offer heaping piles of sympathy. I’ve often thought that your, err, obliviousness, to personal insults hurled at you in the course of pursuing an argument particularly irritated certain personality types. Sorry to see that thought validated.

    Liked by 4 people

  6. Stevie

    Not pleasant, not bright, and completely clueless in the face of people with ethics, mainly because they don’t know what ethics are, much less possess any themselves.

    Last summer I had to miss Worldcon because I was in hospital in London whilst Worldcon was happening in Helsinki, so I did what any old school fan would do; I asked the organisers to see if they could transfer my attending membership to a local fan who’d been short on funds. And so they did, and the sum of human happiness was increased.

    I suspect the Puppies would view this as evidence of a socialist conspiracy; after all, who gives away something that they have paid for to a complete stranger? In their world, apparently none…

    Liked by 4 people

  7. JJ

    Oh, for fuck’s sake. It’s not like your location and profession haven’t been revealed by you in previous posts, and they’re obviously not the same as that poor guy. I can’t believe that the Pups are so incredibly illiterate that they are doubling down on their stupidity instead of figuring it out.

    I hope that the innocent target sues them for libel and harassment.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Mark Hepworth

      Wouldn’t libel require him to prove that being mistaken for Camestros is a bad thing? I mean, who wouldn’t want to be the world-famous* editor to several imaginary creatures writing satirical pulp fiction?

      (*Note, definition of “world-famous” may be a little…loose)

      Liked by 4 people

      • JJ

        Mark Hepworth: Wouldn’t libel require him to prove that being mistaken for Camestros is a bad thing?

        I was referring to the aspersions and accusations about the innocent guy which are no doubt being made in nasty e-mails to his employer by Puppies — and I’m sure that he himself is getting a lot of abuse, too.

        The Mad Idiots Club has really owned themselves with this one. 🙄

        Liked by 2 people

      • Mark Hepworth

        Ah, I hope that’s not actually happening but that’s probably optimistic of me.
        One of the reasons I’m a little cautious about ID online is that having someone decide to whinge about me to my employer would be pesky – not because anything I say online could cause me work trouble, but because trying to explain to HR who these “sad puppies” writing to them are would be such a baffling conversation. I mean, where do you even start with that?

        Liked by 2 people

      • JJ

        Mark Hepworth: trying to explain to HR who these “sad puppies” writing to them are would be such a baffling conversation. I mean, where do you even start with that?

        Yes, it would be likely to make your employer doubt your sanity, because of course, nobody could possibly be that stupid, surely you’re just making it all up.

        Liked by 6 people

  8. JJ

    Okay, I’ve just checked out the Mad Idiots post and comment section. It’s like a bunch of 5-year-olds crowing about how! brilliant! they! are! to have figured out that poop is obviously made of chocolate, because they’re the same color.

    “Both of these people live in Australia, and both of them know something about philosophy: ergo, they must be the same person! ARISTOTLE!!!” 🙄

    Liked by 4 people

    • Bonnie McDaniel

      It’s like a bunch of 5-year-olds crowing about how! brilliant! they! are! to have figured out that poop is obviously made of chocolate, because they’re the same color

      Is that why they have such shit-eating grins?

      (Sorry, couldn’t resist.)

      Liked by 2 people

  9. thephantom182

    Floppy said: “All I can do at this point is apologise to the person the Puppies have decided to victimise.”

    Yeah, sure thing. Hows the victimization going, by the way? Did anybody put a bag of dog poo on his front step and light it on fire yet? That was the big finale.

    Big of you to take the heat for the guy, Floppy… oh wait.

    Like

    • JJ

      It’s not Camestros’ responsibility to doxx himself in order to get the Sick Puppies to stop attacking an innocent bystander.

      It’s the Sick Puppies’ responsibility to get their information right instead of “outing” the wrong person.

      And you Puppies fucked that up royally. The information is on Cam’s blog, but you’re all too stupid, illiterate, and incompetent to find it. 🙄

      Also, I suspect that Freer is lying to all of you, to cover the fact that he’s made you all look like total fools.

      Liked by 3 people

      • asyouknowbob

        “It’s the Sick Puppies’ responsibility to get their information right instead of “outing” the wrong person.”

        Strictly speaking, it’s their responsibility to NOT BE ASSHOLES ON THE INTERNET.
        I’m watching all this from Afar – and I got a GLIMPSE of their behavior: in four comments, I saw TWO death threats.

        And they STILL wonder why CF is reluctant to ‘out’ himself to them….

        Liked by 1 person

    • Chris M

      I remember him as a commenter at Scalzi’s place when there where still conservatives there. He was, uh, not rigorous thinker who was constantly refuted by people smarter than him (and much more liberal respective leftish) but at least wasn’t an arse. The last one changed after Romney lost.

      Liked by 1 person

      • PhilRM

        I think I’d qualify that as he wasn’t *entirely* an arse – I mostly skipped over his comments after a while – but yeah, he threw an epic tantrum after the 2012 election and vanished in a puff of bile.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Lurkertype

        Even the other conservatives at Scalzi’s thought he made them look bad with his, uh, not rigorous thinking. Scalzi didn’t even have to Mallet him, just left him to the readers of any and all political stripe, variety of genders, etc. b/c pretty much everyone there could spot logical fallacies.

        Then he went completely non-linear when White (Horse) Mitt bored everyone into losing the race (alas, for the binders full of women and the no-longer-extant cavalry…). Threw a temper tantrum that would have embarrassed most 3-year-olds of my acquaintance, and flounced. IIRC it took him a couple tries to flounce, come back, and flounce again, but finally he was down to nothing but vitriol and insults, and the Mallet fell.
        (Not literally, b/c have you SEEN the Mallet Scalzi had by then? It’s like a yard long and weighs maybe 5 lbs.)

        Liked by 2 people

      • Cora

        He used to comment at quite a few SFF blogs at the time. I remember tangling with him in the comments at Jay Lake’s blog a few years ago.

        Like

    • Kathodus

      I used to think Dave Freer was one dumb puppy. I’m now nearly convinced he is _the_ dumbest puppy. That comment thread is stunning. Between Torgersen, Antonelli, and Freer you have some of the most amazing examples of extremely intelligent but angry and territorial dogs posting on the internet in the known universe. It’s like Simak’s City, but a dystopia.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Cora

        Case in point: Torgersen sneering about the fact that the guy he believes is Cam is a professor of philosophy and gets paid by the government, which is a bad thing for some reason. Dude, you’re in the military! Who do you think pays your wages?

        Liked by 4 people

      • camestrosfelapton

        Government wage cooties don’t count if you are a soldier or a police officer – also if you cross your fingers and spin in a circle really quick.

        It also just occurred to me what the MOST implausible thing about this story is: the idea that I have a PhD in Logic but never boasted about it. I’m not the most vain of people but no way would I give up the bragging rights on that if it were true. [sigh] sadly no PhD for me 😦

        Liked by 4 people

      • Lurkertype

        There is NO WAY Cam would have neglected to mention the Logic PhD every chance he got. I mean, who wouldn’t?

        I’m am sorry for whoever they think it is, and glad he’s been forewarned that lunatic and stupid Americans have gotten entirely the wrong end of the stick. Or the wrong stick entirely. Can’t even track and fetch properly, which is bad for puppies/dogs.

        (Am now picturing them as the badly-bred ones at the dog park, who when you throw the ball and tell them to fetch, come back with a stick or a rock…)

        Liked by 2 people

    • JJ

      camestrosfelapton: Ooooh, there’s an interesting comment from Dave Freer now at MGC claiming the IP Addresses I used to comment at MGC we’re from Aberdeen at some point and then from Brisbane. That is very interesting…

      That’s really bizarre. On a few occasions, I’ve had a website read my IP address and show me weather or news for one of a couple of different cities which are a couple of hundred miles away — but it’s bizarre that your IP address would be showing as halfway across the country. Were you visiting Noosa or something?

      Liked by 1 person

  10. Mark Hepworth

    So here’s a question: if Dave was absolutely right, why would it even be a bad thing? Why would I stop reading your blog because of it?
    The accusations so far:
    Camestros isn’t your real name – not actually a secret. Your reasons for pseudonymity are good ones before and if anything would be better.
    You’ve got a PhD and a successful academic career – would only improve my impression that you know what you’re talking about.
    You’re married to a writer – so is Mrs Freer, it’s not a bad thing
    You’ve said X thing about them – yep, and I probably agreed with it before and will still agree with it now.
    Being an academic makes you a useless lefty parasite – they already thought that anyway, so what’s different?
    Various nasty comments about family life – says more about them than you

    And so on.

    (More importantly, I just watched DISCO – and now must say nothing more, darn it)

    Liked by 2 people

  11. Laura Resnick

    I have just one quest…. No, I have two ques…. No, I guess I have several questions.

    1. Is Foz Meadows actually married to an Australian PhD named Toby Meadows, or is that more fabrication?
    2. Why do the Puppies want to dox Camestros Felapton? Is it “just because?”
    3. Referring to Brad Torgersen’s post, where do Bolsheviks, the White Guard, and Trotskyites come into any of this? Was I in the bathroom for that portion of the film?
    4. Referring the question no. 3, what about the Muscovites? What are they–chopped liver? They don’t even get a mention?
    5. Do you think the Puppies know the real identity behind my online handle of “Laura Resnick?” Should I go into hiding?

    Liked by 3 people

    • camestrosfelapton

      1. I believe so 2. I think it dates back to one of my first long pieces here which upset Dave Freer 3. I think there must have been a deleted scene 4. likewise 5. I feel like Rasputin must be involved somewhere…

      Like

      • Laura Resnick

        Yeah, but here’s the thing… Has anyone, including Foz Meadows, ever seen you and Dr. Toby Meadows IN THE SAME PLACE, AT THE SAME TIME?

        Hah! I thought not.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Cora

      1. Foz Meadows is definitely married to a philosopher.
      2. Cam pissed them off by making fun of them repeatedly
      3 and 4. Brad Torgersen is the master of the tortured historical metaphor. He’s the one who compared no awarding puppy nominees to herding people onto boxcars and into concentration camps.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Laura Resnick

      He thinks Elizabeth Bear is Poul Anderson’s daughter? Did he think that up himself, or did he get it the same hive-mind that insists “Camestros Felapton” is actually Foz Meadows’ husband, or possibly Fox Meadows herself, or maybe Clark Kent?

      Apart from the funny, what I notice is…That’s very similar wording to the Tweet JdA sent me a couple of weeks ago. Claimed to be a “big fan of your father,” urged me not to “defame” him, etc. Is this just standard Tweet he keeps handy? Like a “does not meet our needs at this time” letter?

      Liked by 3 people

      • Mark Hepworth

        That *is* weird.

        You’ve made me go off on a tangent of wondering how many 2nd gen writers there are in SF? Apart from you I can think of Jennifer Pournelle, Brian Herbert, Joe Hill, ummm would Christopher Tolkien count?

        Liked by 2 people

      • Laura Resnick

        SF novelist C.A. Higgins is a 2nd generation writer; her mom, Lisa Verge Higgins (a friend of mine) writes contemporary women’s fiction.

        Robert Sheckley’s daughter, Alisa Kwitney, writes novels, graphic novels, and nonfiction.

        Fritz Leiber’s grandddaughter is also a writer. I think her recent books (nonfiction) are under her own name, Arlynn Presser, but she started out writing romance under a pseudonym.

        Time-travel blockbuster author Diana Gabaldon’s son writes fantasy as Sam Sykes.

        Probably a bunch of others.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Acoustic Rob

        Terry Pratchett’s daughter Rhianna is a writer, mostly for video games. She’s won awards for the scripts she wrote for the recent Tomb Raider games and has written some spin-off comics too.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Mark Hepworth

        I should have thought of Rhianna Pratchett. I used to read her computer game reviews way back when. I’ve always been impressed by the way she’s made her own way even though she could have traded on the family name.
        (That applies to most of the names mentioned, in fact)

        Liked by 3 people

      • Cora

        Sam Sykes is the son of Diana Gabaldon? Now that is something I did not know.

        As for more multi-generational writer families, James Lee Burke and his daughter Alafair Burke, Anne and Todd McCaffrey, Dick Francis and his son, whose name escapes me and Frank Herbert and his son Brian. I think Tony Hillerman also has a kid who’s a mystery writer, though name and gender escape me in that case.

        Like

    • Andrew M

      I believe ‘Bear’ is actually Elizabeth Bear’s middle name, so I did wonder for a moment if she could actually be Poul Anderson’s daughter, but the Greg Bear explanation makes more sense.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Lurkertype

        Which is doubly dumb… they didn’t ask Brad to “disavow” his (black) wife when he was serving as Teddy’s loyal lickspittle/useful idiot.

        (Although I never could figure why she stayed with him when he was eagerly carrying water for someone who considers her less than human. I’d sure “disavow” anyone who did that to me.)

        Like

    • Lurkertype

      Poul’s daughter/Greg’s wife is named Astrid. B/c Poul was by-God Scandinavian.

      “Elizabeth Bear” is her third and second names.

      All this is in Wikipedia, FFS, if you’re too uninvolved in fandom to know this already. *cough* (Like, say Prominent Local Asshole and Jonny-come-lately to area fandom)

      I knew Sam Sykes was great on Twitter but had no idea he’s Gabaldon’s son! I like him even more now.

      (Does anyone have a handy list of all the Puppies, Scrappies, MGC, men who’ve said dumb-ass RWNJ things here, fellow-travelers of those sorts? I’d like to know who to avoid. I could put it as do-not-read on Goodreads to rile up Richard Whatsis.)

      Liked by 2 people

  12. The Night Wind

    I’ve been the subject of these kinds of speculations, too; though they’ve never tied me to a real person yet. FYI, this is one of the Red Pills’ notorious doxxing tactics. What they’re trying to do is bait you into revealing your real identity to ‘prove’ that you’re not the person whom they’re accusing. It’s a tangential way of doxxing, IOW.

    As long as you don’t fall into their trap, they’ll give up eventually. But it’s really typical of their thuggish character—the literary equivalent of holding an innocent person hostage until their demands are met.

    Liked by 3 people

  13. Paul King

    Quite basic research (Wikipedia) would have shown that Poul Anderson’s daughter is named Astrid and the Elizabeth Bear’s family name is Wishnevsky.

    Liked by 3 people

  14. Chris M.

    Just leaving this here for your general amusement.

    Liked by 4 people

  15. Schnookums Von Fancypants

    Hmm…Camestros Felapton eh? Using my incredible intellect and NOT an internet anagram generator I’ve discovered that rearranged it comes out as STEPSON MALEFACTOR. Give up your pathetic charade, I know EXACTLY who you are! (Okay, so it also rearranges to Falcons: Pest or Meat? but that’s clearly a smokescreen)

    Liked by 6 people

    • Schnookums Von Fancypants

      It was at this point that I was reminded that I too am a Stepson, and can be sometimes a little evil…wait…no…this can’t be..

      *Runs through the house in a mad panic until a mirror is found. As dramatic music swells I stare into the mirror…and the face of Camestros Felapton stares back at me*

      CREDITS ROLL

      A film by M. Night Shyamalan

      Liked by 5 people

  16. Kathodus

    I followed the link in “Array’s” profile pic to Lou Antonelli’s FB page, where he is proudly crowing to an audience of adoring fowl about his noble escapades. One of said fowl claimed they got “Camestros” banned from Facebook. So, did they get the person they presume is Camestros banned, or is there a Camestros Felapton on FB? I’m assuming they got Meadows banned, which is quite a fowl thing for them to do. Either way it’s bad, but to begin harassing innocent bystanders is just ridiculous. I guess we can be relieved that Antonelli hasn’t graduated to actually SWATTing people.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Contrarius

      It’s not a real “ban”. Facebook wants you to use “real” names — read: names that sound reasonably legitimate — and they will remove pages that use obviously fake names. But they mostly only bother to remove them if someone complains.

      I’ve had a Facebook page with an obviously fake alias for years, but it’s inactive and nobody has ever bothered to complain about it. And I have another Facebook page with a pseudonym that I have in the past used professionally, but that one “looks” like a real name so it doesn’t trip Facebook’s trigger.

      In Cam’s case, apparently nobody bothered to complain about the alias til now.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Kathodus

        Theresa _Lucas_?! That MUST be George Lucas’ grand niece! She’s furious that Camestros has been blogging about Star Trek and is on a rampage. How do I know this? How does anyone know anything? How does anyone even?

        Liked by 5 people

      • Lurkertype

        I totally believe Kathodus!!1!! Except I heard it’s a niece, not a grand-niece. All the best people say so.

        I wonder how long it will take Cam’s 2 FB friends to notice he hasn’t posted anything in even longer than the usual period of him not posting anything? And could I have made that last sentence any more awkward?

        By the transitive property, does this mean the PhD man is Foz, and if so, how did he give birth to Foz Jr?? Isn’t that the bigger story??

        Liked by 2 people

    • Kat Goodwin

      The guy who actually committed the crime of attempted murder of a celebrity author through swatting, totally embarrassed himself by bragging about it online, but they still let him come to WorldCon, is crowing over the banning of a non-active Facebook account of a blogger/writer in Australia? The wonder of authoritarians is that they don’t care what they are actually doing as long as they can declare it a sign that they have “power.”

      Liked by 3 people

    • JJ

      Kathodus: I guess we can be relieved that Antonelli hasn’t graduated to actually SWATTing people.

      I don’t know that we can. After what he did to Gerrold, Cuinn, and Pound, I have a pretty strong suspicion that he’s done something equally heinous to his latest innocent victim himself — as if throwing out the Welcome Mat for harassers and abusers on his blog and inviting them to target the poor guy wasn’t enough.

      Liked by 3 people

    • PhilRM

      Thanks to the Puppies and MGC, I think it’s clearly been established that Camestros is an Australian professor of philosophy who is the daughter of Poul Anderson and Greg Bear and is married to Foz Meadows, who may be Trotsky and is possibly some kind of marsupial.

      Liked by 5 people

  17. Pixlaw

    WTF happened to Dave Freer? I’ve liked a great deal of his work over the years, particularly the stuff with Misty Lackey and Eric Flint. But since the whole association with MGC, Sarah Hoyt et.al., I’ve found it more and more difficult to read his fiction, not to mention his blogging. I’m hoping that when the new Heirs of Alexandria comes out (if ever…it seems to be taking a long time) I’ll be able to enjoy it. But, jeez, I’m starting to worry.

    Was he always this loopy, and I just didn’t know it, or was there some sort of tectonic shift that happened at some point over the last 5 or 10 years?

    Liked by 2 people

    • Lurkertype

      Puppies happened.
      A dark-complected man became POTUS.
      Women, PoC, LGBTQ quit being invisible and silent and started winning literary awards.
      Larry and Brad got pissed off that they were “only” nominated for a major award but didn’t win.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Cora

      It seems to me as if the Mad Geniusses are egging each other on and are getting worse over time. Sarah Hoyt really went off the deep end when Obama was reelected. Ditto for Torgersen, whom I still remember from a time when he was at least sort of reasonable. That would have been in 2012, the same year that Brad Torgersen lost a Hugo to a transwoman and the Campbell to a woman of colour (which must have irked him to no end) and a year after Larry Correia lost the Campbell to Lev Grossman. His ungracious reaction to that put Correia on my radar and not in a good way. The puppies appeared soon thereafter

      Dave Freer was not even on my radar, until the Mad Geniuses ganged up on me in early 2014, because they disagreed with a post of minem, and Freer decided to leave a 2000 plus word comment on my blog just to let me know that I’m stupid and clearly unable to understand English because I’m a foreigner. I pointed out that the same thing applied to his friend Sarah and if that meant he thought she was too stupid to understand English, too, and locked comments.

      Liked by 4 people

  18. supplanter

    I’ve been treating this as just another whistle stop by the Fail Carnival, but having read an excerpt from the Freer piece I now find it a bit scary. When it comes to RWNJery, one has to read “very reminiscent description of the situation between MZB and Breen” in the context of Pizzagate. Which, as Alexandra Erin pointed out after the Chrissy Teigen incident last month, still exists as an ongoing delusion of ever-more-ludicrous scale. There’s genuine menace to the Meadows’s, with potential spillover to our beloved CF, in where Freer is taking this.

    Liked by 6 people

    • JJ

      supplanter: having read an excerpt from the Freer piece I now find it a bit scary… There’s genuine menace to the Meadows’s, with potential spillover to our beloved CF, in where Freer is taking this.

      Not to mention which —
      I know where Cam lives. While it’s possible that his IP Address might show up as being a couple hundred kilometers from where he lives, there is no way in hell that it is showing up as being in Brisbane.

      Dave Freer is an evil, deliberate liar. And I can’t wait for the day when the rest of the Sick Puppies finally realize it and turn on him with a vengeance.

      Lou Antonelli is an evil, deliberate liar who stalks and harasses people, and who incites others to stalk and harass his targets. And I can’t wait for the day that he ends up in jail because of it.

      Liked by 4 people

      • yamamanama

        And I can’t wait for the day when the rest of the Sick Puppies finally realize it and turn on him with a vengeance.

        And I can’t wait until the sun rises blue as Neptune in the morning and I become the long-jump champion of the world.

        Like

    • Micael Gustavsson

      Does ”Freer piece”refer to commentaries in Mad Genius Club, or has he written something else on this?

      Like

    • Laura Resnick

      Yeah, I have mostly viewed this incident as clueless ranting that’s ludicrous enough to be funny.

      But those comments by Freer are disturbing. His speculation about the Meadows’ marriage is salacious, and his likening the couple to child molesters is grotesque.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Cora

        I find their MZB obsession quite puzzling. Why obsess over a writer who’s been dead for 18 years, who’s been disavowed by pretty much the entire SFF community ever since the abuse allegations became public and whose star was fading long before that. It seems the only people who still care about Marion Zimmer Bradley are the various puppy groups.

        Okay, so accusing their opponents of being pedophiles and sexual abusers is a depressingly common tactic among the right (in Germany, rightwingers attack the Green Party over forty year old party manifestoes, which proposed significantly lowering the age of consent), but usually their targets aren’t people who have been dead for decades.

        Liked by 1 person

      • camestrosfelapton

        They actually don’t give a shit about MZB. The Neffie awards which get promoted there and which I’ve linked to before aren’t shy about the role of MZB in the history of their group. That never gets a mention.

        Liked by 1 person

  19. John Mark Ockerbloom

    IP locations can be trickier to place than you might think, particularly with large-scale hosted services or network providers. I remember not too long ago trying to determine whether a site was saying it was Canadian was really located there, and getting confused that location services placed it alternatingly in California or Arizona. Eventually someone I knew in the area confirmed the site was actually in British Columbia like it said, and I figured out that the IP address I was seeing was from the content distribution network node its hosting service was using to get traffic to me.

    Similar thing can happen with large ISPs, especially ones that reuse dynamic IP addresses. When I browse e-commerce sites they often place me outside my own city, and sometimes in another nearby state. (I generally don’t disabuse them of their notions, since I’m happy to have online businesses not track me *too* closely 🙂

    So it may well be possible that a US site might end up locating an Australian IP address in Brisbane, even for someone coming from somewhere very different. Perhaps there’s a US-facing content gateway operating out of Brisbane, or perhaps the IP address once got dynamically allocated to a Brisbane location in one of its many hops around the ISP’s territory. Or perhaps there’s some other cause I haven’t come up with above. But it’s quite possible whoever says he looked at our host’s IP address really thinks it’s in Brisbane, but knows less than he thinks he does.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Kathodus

      Yeah, geo-location via IP address is sketchy. Geo-location via IP as sussed out by Dave Freer is pretty much an auto-fail. He should stick to fishing for actual fish. Which isn’t even addressing Meadows’ pointing out that whichever pupper it was who “tracked” Camestros confused Bristol with Brisbane.

      Liked by 2 people

    • camestrosfelapton

      True but the IP address WordPress gives for my comments here say NSW not Queensland and Mad Genius is also a WP hosted blog and Dave Freer would be checking from Tasmania. Also, there’s no way it would resolve as Aberdeen 🙂

      Liked by 2 people

  20. No one of any note

    Back in 2010, the antivax crowd (of which VD is a tangential part, actually) went through a similar auto-fail. Due to a reading comprehension failure and powerful projection (sound familiar?), the antivaxxers decided that Sullivan, the then pseudonymous manager of the pro-children’s health blog LeftBrainRightBrain, was actually Dr. Bonnie Offit, wife of the life-saving Dr. Paul Offit, which was bad because … reasons, I’m sure. Eventually Sullivan revealed his true name, and the antivaxxers admitted their error in their typical big-hearted way (does sarcasm show up as clearly as intended?), and remained just as confident in all their wild guesses as they’d always been. Details here https://respectfulinsolence.com/2010/11/16/i-am-bonnie-offit/ and here https://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2010/11/16/i-am-bonnie-offit/.

    Meanwhile, I hope everyone remembers that this gang of idiots is just as confident, just as non-evidence-based, and just as likely to be right as Richard P (not bothering to Google, because who cares what his name is) was when he was sure that Camestros was Mike Glyer.

    Best wishes to Cam and this week’s victims of the Cam-fearing brigade, long may they cower in fear of Tim-the-cat and his mighty powers.

    Liked by 2 people

  21. Lurkertype

    GUYS!

    I figured it out.

    Puppies and Scrappies live in such a tiny world that they assume everyone’s related to everyone (cough*Ivanka*cough).

    Also that everyone in their tiny world only operates on a transactional basis — what can they do for me? (cough*entire US administration*cough)

    So the idea that there are lots of different people out there who independently have many of the same ideas (like Cam and whoever he’s supposed to be this week), and are generous without recompense (like Stevie giving her Worldcon membership to a stranger, or whatever Filer it was bought me a Supporting Membership last year) is quite literally beyond their ken.

    Cam has to be married to Foz. SF women surnamed Bear have to all be the same. Everyone has to be Mike Glyer.

    Tiny, tiny, inbred worlds that are scared of new people and new ideas. Walls to fester behind and gatekeepers to make sure no one different gets in.

    SAD!

    Liked by 5 people

  22. Meredith

    Unless I’m badly misremembering (I might be!) Camestros was born and raised in Britain and moved to Sydney Australia, which of course means they must be my uncle, since there can’t possibly be two people with moderately similar characteristics on the internet.

    Liked by 4 people

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